Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Thank you. The book’s even better.
The verse is probably mangled in your Protestant quasi-translation.
[I] now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church (D-R/Col. 1:24)
[εγω] χαιρω εν τοις παθημασιν υπερ υμων και ανταναπληρω τα υστερηματα των θλιψεων του χριστου εν τη σαρκι μου υπερ του σωματος αυτου ο εστιν η εκκλησια (Byzantine/Majority Text, 2000)
[I] rejoice in the sufferings for you and refill the voids of-the tribulations of Christ in the flesh my for the body his that is the Church
The image here is literal: Christ has a hole and our suffering fills that hole with out flesh. The meaning is that to build up the Church we apply our suffering to Christ's and make a single whole. That is to say, the redemption of Christ is not complete, -- still has holes -- until one desiring to be saved joins Christ in suffering.
If you want to understand the Holy Scripture, ask a Catholic.
In 169 I explain in detail about superior faculties of the saints.
Satan used the RCC to DO it??
No, Satan used Luther. It is he who burned the papal bull, not the other way around. He broke off the Church.
Yes, if one reads the Holy Scripture like a cop in a police station reads a service manual, for sanctions and prohibitions, yes, perhaps, but then that one does not read the scripture for what it is: a source of reflection and inspiration. I never argued the point that there is no direct support for veneration of saints in the scripture; I argued and showed to all that there is ample support for the constituent elements of such veneration:
actual scriptural support is not necessary for all of Rome's doctrines
True, but in this case we have ample support for the elements of which a robust culture of veneration of saints builds upon.
Yeah, when reason fails and education falls short, let us slander the Holy Church. Works every time. Pathetic, Dan.
Yup; you sure did.
You spelled 'bits and pieces' wrong.
Yeah, when history and facts reveals the SINS of the Holy Church; let's blame it on Luther.
Excuse me, annalex, but that is pure hogwash. If you truly believe that, it is no wonder that Catholics teach that Christ's FINISHED WORK is not finished at all, and they must WORK for their salvation. Which is not scriptural at all, and therefore CANNOT be the Holy Spirit giving you this meaning.
(i)now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh, for His body's sake, which is the church." Col. 1:24.
In what sense did Paul fill up that which remained of the afflictions of Christ? SURELY he could add nothing to the finished work of redemption. The point is that, while Christ's VICARIOUS suffering for sin was OVER, He was STILL REJECTED BY MEN, and in GRACE CHOSE to remain so for a time rather than proceed immediately to JUDGE HIS ENEMIES. So, putting off the day of His wrath, He saved Saul, His chief foe, and sent him forth to proclaim grace and peace to His enemies everywhere. Thus the great persecutor now becomes the PERSECUTED ONE, bearing the AFFLICTIONS OF CHRIST'S CONTINUED REJECTION BY MAN. And as long as our Lord IN GRACE remains away, we, the members of His BOdy, follow Paul in persecution of Christ's message of His finished work for mankind.
"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to BELIEVE ON HIM, BUT ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE.
"Having the same CONFLICT WHICH YE SAW IN ME, AND NOW HEAR TO BE IN ME." (Phil.1:29,30).
If you have ever stood alone, preaching the free gift of salvation by grace through faith plus NOTHING, then you know what suffering for Christ is, annalex. You will be scoffed at, ridiculed, wailing and gnashing will be what you hear from those who are desperate to have their works become their shining example to God that they are worthy.
Rather, if reason and education exposes the lack of holiness of Rome and Scriptural warrant for doctrines of her then let the RCA's slander or demean those who expose them. Pathetic, annalex, who hardly has been an example of a gracious fair-minded spirit yourself.
Meaning you have no actual support in examples and teaching on who prayer to Heaven is addressed to - which i showed to all is what is abundantly provided by God only for prayer directly to Him - and can only engage in arguments from silence and extrapolations based on speculating what God could do, and what might be happening, which hermeneutic opens the door for all sort of beliefs, but is not the basis for sound doctrine, especially for such a fundamental practice.
Which testifies to the rejection of consistent and actual Scriptural support as the basis for PTDS doctrine, for it is an extraBiblical tradition of men, and the real basis for your assurance is the self-proclaimed infallibility of Rome. For indeed, as you once said so eloquently, "We are our own law, and are free to piss on anyone else's bad laws. In full accordance with Romans 13." If she does say so herself.
And that's exactly what Catholicism does. Do's and don't's ad nauseum.
Don't do this, don't do that. That's a mortal sin. that's a venial sin. Gotta go to confession, Gotta do penance. Do, do, do.....
If you aren't good enough, hell for you or an extended stay in purgatory. Always striving to reach a goal that NO ONE can ever reach, and being told that that's still not good enough.
Real big on the judgment of God and very short on mercy and grace.
And so Catholics have an unappeasable God who needs to be placated and won't listen to His own children's prayers Himself so they feel the need to go through saints and Mary, who they teach Gad cannot refuse any request of hers.
And Scripture is not to be read as a source of reflection and inspiration. It's Truth and tells us about God and how to know Him, the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.
Dontcha know? Luther was wrong for objecting to the immorality and corruption rife within the Catholic church and wanting to eliminate it.
What a heretic.
Amen, metmom. AMEN
If you aren't good enough, hell for you or an extended stay in purgatory. Always striving to reach a goal that NO ONE can ever reach, and being told that that's still not good enough.
So THIS is where Joseph Smith got his ideas from!!
Amen.
Thanks for that post. You stole my thunder lol, but I appreciate you setting him right for me instead of letting it sit there all afternoon. I saw his silly post this morning but didn’t have time to reply until just now.
Observe the scattering of Protestantism, and reflect on this verse. Then observe the unifying nature of the Apparition of Fatima or of Zeitoun.
Sorry but the visions of the ghost of Mary do not gather anyone to Jesus...The ghost gathers people to the ghost...The verse you posted does not apply...It has nothing to do with seeing ghosts...
This ghost of Mary does not unify any Christians...The ghost draws Catholics to Catholicism...It draws the muzlims to Mohammed and Izlam...And who knows which other unGodly religion this ghost draws to Fatima...
More like, if you want a perverted and accursed version of the Holy Scriptures, ask a Catholic!
The sufferings of Christ leave NO hole or want for further suffering for our redemption. To presume that whatever physical, emotional or other suffering we endure for the sake of Christ gets ADDED to His sacrifice for our sins makes a mockery of the gospel. Jesus said, "It is finished." and by his ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice, He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (Heb. 10:14). The redemption of Christ IS complete - we add NOTHING of our own to it but to receive His gift by faith.
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