Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[Elsie]

You really think Jesus would send Christians to hell???

John 3:18

[Elsie]

...the ability of a saint far exceed the ability of anyone prior to his sanctification in heaven.

Of COURSE it does!

[Elsie]

In fact, any Catholic who left the Church for one Protestant cult or another is already one foot in hell.

And THEN if he switches to yet another; then B OTH feet will be there.

Gee Alex; you've just condemned someone to hell... or the RCC has!

[Elsie]

The priest is a stand-in for Christ.

Why?

Couldn't the wafers just be imprinted with...

EAT ME

[Elsie]

find me the word “Catholic” in the Bible

How about a picture (or more) in this thread illustrating a certain posters MO...

[Elsie]

[Elsie]

[Elsie]

I'm gonna risk being compared to narses and...

[Elsie]

You are visually stuttering...

[Elsie]

Oh the tares aren’t THAT bad; are they?

[Elsie]

Yup.

You’ve a definite compulsion.

To much WINE this morning?

It’s ONLY Jesus’ blood you know.

Mary is still dead; too.

[CynicalBear]

>> Then why does St. Paul in 1 Timothy describe Bishops, Deacons and Presbyters?<<

There is no priest or Catholic in 1 Timothy. And please don’t try the Catholic nonsense of “presbyters” meaning priest. It doesn’t. And the word is Presbuteros.

Presbuteros
elder, of age, the elder of two people advanced in life, an elder, a senior forefathers a term of rank or office among the Jews members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God. [http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=presbuteros&s=References&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK]

No priest definition.

[daniel1212]

Thus you retract that "a rich man must end his days in a monastery if he wants to be saved ?"

[CynicalBear]

I wouldn’t hold your breath. I’m thinking more doublespeak coming up.

[CynicalBear]

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop (episkopēs), he desireth a good work.

episkopēs
Definition: (a) visitation (of judgment), (b) oversight, supervision, overseership [http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/1984.htm]

Episkopēs
investigation, inspection, visitation that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad oversight overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church [http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=episkope&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX%20GRK&ps=10&s=References]

I already gave the definition of “Presbuteros” in post 2392. Please don’t pm me and think by sending me to some Catholic site it’s going to hold weight. The original Greek shows the RCC to be in error.

[Alex Murphy]

....it is entirely possible for a Catholic man to end up in hell. In fact, any Catholic who left the Church for one Protestant cult or another is already one foot in hell.

I am told that this never happens.

[Iscool]

Me: Another good Catholic...You obviously don't even check the scripture to see if annalex is telling the truth... Those verses have nothing to do with commanding anyone to become a priest, let alone Catholic, which doesn't exist in the scriptures...

Then why does St. Paul in 1 Timothy describe Bishops, Deacons and Presbyters?

Is this a trick question or something??? Paul describes them because they are real...But one thing you'll notice is there are no Catholics and no priests...

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Does Paul mean the meaningless geneology of the papist popehood???

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Have we seen anything Catholic yet??? That one certainly knocks your religion out of the loop...

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

Well, that disqualifies every one in your religion whom you call a bishop...

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Bible says those who forbid anyone to marry is a liar and a hypocrite, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils...

I guess you are right, your religion is spoken of in Timothy...

The Church was Catholic. History tells us so through St. Paul.

No history to it...Catholic history is not bible history nor apostle Paul history...So show us some scripture in 1Timothy that IS pro Catholic...You can't do it...God's word is anti-Catholic...

[Iscool]

When that’s all you got, guess you have to flaunt it...

[annalex]

Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

How is that an argument against superior ability of saints, clearly taught in the Bible?

[annalex]

Not even once is there mention of a priest in the New Testament church

Read the Bible every once in a while and you will know better. Also toss your phony Protestant translations and read Douay or the Greek original.

they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of the other side, should go up to the apostles and priests [πρεσβυτερους] to Jerusalem about this question (Acts 15:2).

Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood [πρεσβυτεριου] (1 Timothy 4:14)

Let the priests [πρεσβυτεροι] that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour (1 Timothy 5:17)

Against a priest [πρεσβυτερου] receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses. (1 Timothy 5:19)

ordain priests [πρεσβυτερους] in every city (Titus 1:5)

Let him bring in the priests of the church [πρεσβυτερους της εκκλησιας], and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord (James 5:14)