Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[metmom]

Here, one of my favorite worship songs.... (well, one of my couple dozen *favorites*)

It’s all about Jesus.

Hillsong Chapel - Salvation is Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeBBfLU1cWw

[Iscool]

I am sorry, I don’t think you understand the argument. That the word “saint” is sometimes used by St. Paul without mentioning collections for them does not mean that saints are both offering and receiving collections.

So now you have two requirements for people to become saints...They must be 'poor' and they must be 'extremely holy'...How many more requirements do you think we can find???

Naw, I'll just go with what the scripture says and call all Christians saints...

Wait, here's more...In Acts. 9:13 we see that Paul only persecuted the poor and holy saints...The others he left alone, eh???

When Paul went to the church in Rome in Romans 1:7 whata ya think? he sent those less than saints outside so he could only address the saints???

And in Romans 8:27 the Holy Spirit makes intercession for the poor and holy saints only??? Let me guess, all the rest of Christiandom has to pray to Mary???

Whoops, spoke too soon...There's more...The saints in Romans 12:13, we find out that the saints not only have to be poor, and holy, they must be 'hospitable' as well...Yep, the crowd is thinning out...

So now, Paul goes back to Jerusalem and minister ONLY to the poor, holy, hospitable saints...The rest of the sanctified Christians have to cover their ears in Romans 15:25...

In Eph. 2:9 we learn that Paul is not a saint himself...He is less than the least of the saints and he builds tents so he won't be poor...Paul doesn't qualify to be a poor saint...

Then in Eph. 6:18 we mere Christians are instructed to pray continually, but only for the poor, holy, hospitable saints...

In 1Thes. we learn that when Christ returns, he brings along his saints only...Guess the rest of the body of Christ went somewhere else???

After reading thru a few of these scriptures, I am quite convinced that your definition of Saints does not apply...

[Iscool]

why oh why didn’t the Holy Spirit write a dictionary so we could understand the Word of God? Silly Him, He thought we could read and with His help we could KNOW God’s word plainly. I feel so foolish..

He sooo could have avoided such a long bible with over 31,000 verses in it...Just a couple of chapters and a dictionary...Like the Catholics do...

[Iscool]

It works like this: God, Who predestines my steps knows of my prayer for the departed before I have offered it, and will include the prayer in His judgment before it is uttered.

God directed you to pray for someone long before you even knew you wanted to pray for that person, long before the person needed the prayer, even before that person dies...So that prayer, even if years later, that you never new you were going to make til after the person died, is credited to you as well as helps out the person in need...

Ya know, they claim that a person just can't make this stuff up, but you did...I didn't know your new book was going to be fiction...

[metmom]

LOLOL!!!

[WVKayaker]

..I didn't know your new book was going to be fiction...

It will jus be full of hot air!

[metmom]

It works like this: God, Who predestines my steps knows of my prayer for the departed before I have offered it, and will include the prayer in His judgment before it is uttered.

Wait...... What????

Free will is passe` now?

Isn't there some kind of anathema against those who believe in predestination and who deny free will?

[Elsie]

...God can apply my prayer retroactively.

Well; since people WILL be praying for you in the future; you are probably feeling the effects of them right NOW!

[Elsie]

It works like this:

It appears that Rube Goldberg is channeling through you.

[Elsie]

I know what the Holy Church teaches and I explain it.

Now THIS is a statement of yours I can fully agree with!

[Elsie]

‘HOLY’ church?

NONE is ‘holy’ except GOD!

[Iscool]

HaHa...No doubt...

[Elsie]

He can inject himself into any time he so chooses for any purpose.

This is a guess, to back up a 'belief'.

(You've been talking with annalex WAY too much!)

LOL

---

Galatians 4:4

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

---

Not BEFORE, and not AFTER.

Jesus came ONCE, in the flesh of Man.

He'll come again, clothed in Heavenly 'flesh'.

[Iscool]

Isn't there some kind of anathema against those who believe in predestination and who deny free will?

The mystery is, why didn't God predestine annalex (or whoever) to pray for the person before the person died???

[Elsie]

Works for me.

At some point; an authority figure will tell them to stand down.

[boatbums]

I completely agree. I think it should be patently obvious that praying TO dead people, even if they were exemplary believers, is a one-way communication system. There is no way that a person can, first of all, know that the one they are praying to is IN heaven (just because the RCC pronounces them as "saints" doesn't necessarily mean they are). Secondly, there isn't the same kind of connection with someone alive, who speaks back to you, and someone who is dead, who you WON'T hear. Lastly, when a prayer isn't answered in the way preferred, the "saint" is never blamed for the failure to accomplish the request and, instead, the pray-er takes on the blame because something MUST have been lacking with them - it couldn't possibly be the saint who messed up, could it?

All this shows is that the one to whom ALL glory and honor and praise belongs is usually the second fiddle to the "saint" who is beseeched for the request. When these prayers are mysteriously answered, up go more shrines, stories, myths, praise ads in newspapers and the devotion is increased for the "saint" instead of Jesus Christ. To me, this is ample evidence that PTDS is NOT of God and should not be promoted in the church.

[Elsie]

Lastly, when a prayer isn't answered in the way preferred, the "saint" is never blamed for the failure to accomplish the request and, instead, the pray-er takes on the blame because something MUST have been lacking with them - it couldn't possibly be the saint who messed up, could it?

Details...

The devil is in 'em...

[annalex]

you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession

But note: St. Peter did not call Catholics also saints. Kings we are, holy nation we are, saints we are called to become.

Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

τη εκκλησια του θεου τη ουση εν κορινθω ηγιασμενοις εν χριστω ιησου κλητοις αγιοις
the church of God that exists in Corinth sanctified in Christ Jesus invited saints

What is not clear here? There is a church in Corinth consisting of confirmed Catholics (=sanctified, like me) and invited to become saints.

This is perhaps what is confusing you: in English "to call" has two meanings, "to give a name" and "to invite". "κλητός", however, does not have the first aspect at all: it means, "invited", "called out", "welcomed", "summoned" etc. The very word definition presupposed transition to a new state.

Your "called saints" simply does not translate "κλητοις αγιοις".

he transliterated Greek word is hagiazó.

Yes, it is related to sanctification, but here "ηγιασμενοις" is listed apart from "κλητοις αγιοις" so clearly is has a different meaning to St. Paul. Most likely "ηγιασμενοις" is a reference to chrysmation or confirmation, an initiation sacrament of the Catholic Church, which begins the journey toward sainthood. and of course all Catholic Christians are set apart by the fact of their confirmation: they becomes soldiers for Christ, able to explain and defend the Holy Catholic faith.

[annalex]

From the saints for poor saints.

The quote in Romans indeed mentions "poor saints" so if that were the only reference to such collections, you theory would be plausible. However, the two quotes that I rely upon simply say "saints", and that shows that "saint" to S.t Paul is someone for whom collections are made, -- cannot be every parishioner.

concerning the collections that are made for the saints… (1 Corinthians 16:1)

concerning the ministry that is done towards the saints… (2 Corinthians 9:1)

[annalex]

Problem is

Problem is, half of the time I have to explain it to you three time before you grasp it, so I don't think you are even qualified to figure out what the gospel says and what it doesn't say.