Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[metmom]

Every focus on Mary I a focus on Jesus.

Baloney. Every focus on anyone but Jesus is focus off Jesus.

[metmom]

Every focus on Mary I a focus on Jesus.

Baloney. Every focus on anyone but Jesus is focus off Jesus.

Mary ≠ Jesus

[metmom]

Mary has no such title. She is never referred to as such in the Bible. There is no reference that the Disciples considered her as any person worthy of worship or by title. No commandment to treat her any different than anybody elses mother. Again, Jesus is the focus not Mary, not the Pope and not any Church rituals.

The Holy Spirit saw fit to call Mary, *the mother of Jesus*.

Apparently, Catholics think that what the Holy Spirit does isn't good enough.

John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.

John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”

Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.

The Holy Spirit, in Scripture, is clear in calling her *mother of Jesus* not *mother of God*. The phrase *mother of God* is not found ANYWHERE.

[annalex]

What a Christian

That is indeed why veneration of saints is necessary for our salvation in practice if not in theory. Observe how stories of martyrdom or near martyrdom, both in the Holy Scripture and outside of it show how the saint imitates Christ in his approach to martyrdom: avoids it while possible, thanks God for the honor to gain martyrdom, prays for his tormentors and speaks with Christ at the hour of his death. The feats of the saints teach us how to become saints ourselves (Acts 16:30-34), beginning in our peculiar circumstance; and the unbelievers rightly fear the saints (Matthew 14:2).

[metmom]

Secondly, she could have lawfully declined at the Annunciation as any woman may. That would not have been a sin.

Baloney. Mary was not given a choice. The angel told her how it was going to be.

[BipolarBob]

I wholeheartedly agree with your synopsis. However I am pinging annalex to direct them his/her way.

[annalex]

What is unclear in these verses? They all show that a saint is like and angel, i.e. is a messenger of God, yet superior to an angel, for he can judge angels; that his life is not some kind of hibernation, but rather is abundant; that his intellect is clear while our intellect is dim. Saints have superior faculties; this is why prayer to them is efficacious.

[metmom]

Yes, honey, we had bad popes and probably will have bad popes some more.

*honey*???

I sure hope that was Ann posting and not Alex.

[annalex]

Huh?

You correctly mentioned to me (in 59) that Jews object to veneration of saints from a different angle. I then, in 91, pointed out that the Jewish objection is logical for a Jew, who does not believe in divinity of Jesus nor in sanctification of Jesus's disciples. The Protestant objection is illogical because it is counterscriptural, and I referred you to the relevant scriptures that point to the reality of sanctification.

bring the actual passages you speak of

But of course. I usually assume people have a Bible handy, but here it is.

I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)

This shows that a life of a saint is abundant compared to unbeliever; "that they may have" indicates that it is the life not yet given them rather the natural life they already have. This alone should destroy the Protestant superstition that saints are somehow dead, cannot respond to prayers, etc.

in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.(Matthew 22:30)

This shows that the saint is like an angel. But what is an angel? - A messenger of God. Saints therefore can and do fulfill requests from God and interact with us like angels do.

Know you not that we shall judge angels? (1 Corinthians 6:3)

This shows that the state of a saint is higher than an angel; while the saint possesses the faculties of an angel, his are even greater.

We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12)

This shows that the intellectual ability of a saint exceeds our abilities before death.

you seemed to have fully ducked the questions concerning it. Which version is newadvent relying upon?

I gave you the link, and this is what is at the bottom of that page:

Translated by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. .

How is it "ducking the question"?

On the substance of the veneration of relics in The Martyrdom of Polycarp, yeah, sure it is there: St. Polycarp's disciples wish to "become possessors of his holy flesh" because martyrs like St. Polycarp they "worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master". The purpose of gathering his holy bones is also sated: "we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom". (Chapter 17)

I'll stand with [the unconverted Jews] in this, before I'll stand with you

Maybe I am wasting my time with you then? You know, I am Christian. I have no clue what you are.

[daniel1212]

But what is being argued, that of Mary have a prior resurrection before the rest of the saints and crowned in heaven prior to the last trump at Christ’’s return... (once again making her like Christ) is not “Calvinosaurusization,” but Romanization.

[annalex]

Nowhere in the Good Book is Mary referred to as the "Queen of Heaven" or given any ranking over the Apostles

So?

[annalex]

Evangalization is a must, Evangelical Protestantism is a stupid, counter-scriptural, and dangerous superstition.

[annalex]

Thanks. I usually ignore what Metmom posts unless there is a question in it.

[metmom]

Nowhere in the Good Book is Mary referred to as the "Queen of Heaven" or given any ranking over the Apostles

annalex: So?

Gotta love the Catholic respect for God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture.....

[BipolarBob]

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.

[RobbyS]

If as Protestant doctrine has it the Christian faith consists of only what is contained in Scripture. Then one would expect that somewhere in the New Testament a statement of this doctrine could be found. Since it is not, than it is no better founded than the “extrabiblical” doctrines that you deplore.

[RobbyS]

But how do YOU know this? I know why I believe she is alive because this is what the Church says. You believe what you say because someone else told you she is not.

[daniel1212]

Nowhere in the Good Book is Mary referred to as the "Queen of Heaven" or given any ranking over the Apostles So?

While other RCs vainly attempt to make Scripture teach this, at least here we have here the unabashed assertion that this is not necessary (only that it does not contradict Scripture - as far as Rome sees it), which is true as far as Rome is concerned, for she is her own rule.

[MarkBsnr]

I’m not sure who the RCC is.

However, if the Catholic Church had had its sh*t together, there would have been no need of the counter Reformation, since there would have been no Reformation to begin with. Shame on us.

[MarkBsnr]

You see; you need a little snippet of this, found here; and a tiny dab of that, found there; and a sprinkling of other things found elsewhere; to come up with some theological points that are worthy of inclusion on the latest Discovery channel's series: Theology in a Blender 9 CST.

You have discovered the secret of Protestantism. I must congragulate you on your wisdom.