Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[annalex]

we ALL are saved - by grace through faith APART from our works as Holy Scripture repeatedly states

Apart form WORKS of LAW, -- the scripture and the Catholic Church teach that. Not apart from all our works, as James 2 teaches and the Catholic Church teaches. That you left the Church for some cult does not make conversing with you an attractive proposition, by the way.

[CynicalBear]

>>The only heretics here are the Protestants like yourself.<<

Define you definition of “Protestant”. I belong to, nor am I affiliated with any “Protestant” organization or denomination.

>>No it doesn't: St. James says the opposite.<<

You have been shown over and over again and scripture disagrees with you. I’m not sure why you persist in that error.

[annalex]

to justify us in the sight of men

Like someone cares? We are talking, with St. James, salvation in eternity, not popularity.

Anther charlatan interpreting the Holy Scripture as he finds convenient. Yuk.

[CynicalBear]

I don’t guess we will ever get those RCC glasses off the Catholics who persist in the error of her.

[annalex]

left to you we would never have seen

Please do not try to read the mind of another Freeper. You want to ask me a question, ask. That is what I am here for.

from a Prot. perspective

I have no interest in "Prot. Perspective" at all. What made you think I do?

[CynicalBear]

>> Nowhere directly, however it was the practice of the Church to consider<<

So the apostles did NOT teach that.

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9

[smvoice]

I think it’s because he hopes some lurker sees his post, and doesn’t go any further, dragging that lie around like a lion drags around his latest kill. Sooner or later, that kill is gonna start stinking and will draw vultures. So he stays over his prey, watching and guarding for intruders into his feast. He doesn’t go forward, he doesn’t go backward. He just stays still, paranoid his meal will be stolen if he doesn’t keep constant vigil.

[annalex]

These passages make judgement conditional on perfect, i.e. Catholic faith. You cannot count yourself among the saints and deny half the Holy Scripture, while citing the half you like.

…with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world. (Philippians 2:12-15)

Many others like that as well. Catholic salvation is work in progress. Protestant salvation is not even inchoate, given your attitude.

[annalex]

Read the article. And, is it too much to ask for a bit of scriptural literacy?

[annalex]

Yes, anyone can be saved if he “does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it”. But works of LAW do not save.

[smvoice]

...and with your last post, I am going to mark it to answer tomorrow. It's too important a Scripture to give a 3-word answer to. But suffice it to say, once again, annalex, your understanding is, uh,...not..exactly..right. OK it's wrong.

Wrong.

WRONG.

[annalex]

why you persist

Because I can read. You guys showed me ways to disbelieve the Holy Scripture and I ignored your advice.

[annalex]

OK, I’ll look for it. However, understand that when 20 people post to me various ways to dance away from the plain text of James 2 I lose interest in serious conversations.

And this is why I am not wrong: because on the critical Protestant superstitions: salvation by faith alone, rule of faith by scripture alone, Holy Eucharist being symbolic, salvation being once-done deal: I, as Catholic go by direct, plain word of the Bible.You need to invent interpretations and theories. I am not interested in them

[CynicalBear]

>>"The mother of my Lord", Luke 1:43. "The Lord" is the name for God throughout the Greek<<

Luke1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord [kurios] should come to me?

http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/2962.htm
Transliteration: kurios
Phonetic Spelling: (koo'-ree-os)
Short Definition: lord, Lord, master, sir

Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's [kurios] money.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's [kurios] will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 16:5 So he called every one of his lord's [kurios] debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?

[CynicalBear]

>>I think it’s because he hopes some lurker sees his post, and doesn’t go any further,<<

That’s exactly how the RCC works. Then get them dependent on getting all of the information from them telling them they will not understand what scripture says without what the RCC teaches them. Then there is the threat of no salvation of you don’t belong to the RCC.

[metmom]

Some devices have auto correct for spelling.

Maybe you can figure out a way to turn it off.

[CynicalBear]

>>…with fear and trembling work out your salvation<<

Jesus already answered that one.

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

>>Catholic salvation is work in progress.<<

So sorry to hear that. Christian salvation is a done deal. We have the assurance of the Holy Spirit.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)

[jodyel]

“To the contrary, there are several instances where He was a little abrupt with Mary. Maybe she was being too much of a Jewish mother.”

Darned if she did, and darned if she didn’t. Mothers are just mothers..even His mother. :)

“Btw, I don’t accept the label “Protestant”; why don’t you call yourselves Christians, if that’s what you are, instead of Catholics?”

Good point...but a Catholic will never give up THE CHURCH. It is their end all and be all as much as they say Jesus is. And they could not risk excommunication and damnation. Lots of reasons why they will NEVER come out of that institution and use just the Christian appellation. PRIDE is another very good reason. Being Catholic sets them apart from the rest of us dumb souls who don’t have the brilliance to believe what they do. And I could go on and on but that is enough for now.

[CynicalBear]

>>Read the article. And, is it too much to ask for a bit of scriptural literacy?<<

We keep giving you scripture but you keep denying it.

[metmom]

It does not say our salvation is finished. If we have the kind of faith that works, then we would walk in the good works and then we are saved.

That's mixed up.

It's really If we are saved we have the kind of faith that works, then we would walk in the good works.

Jesus said *It is finished* when He died on the cross. When He died the curtain of the Temple was torn in two from the top down. (I can only imagine how much that freaked out the priests who were in the Temple at the time for a variety of reasons)

So tell me, if our works *finish* our salvation, then why did Jesus say *It is finished* if it wasn't?