Does The Orthodox Presbyterian Church use the Crucifix?

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

[Gamecock]

Question:

Does the OPC use the crucifix in the church? If not, are they opposed to it?

Answer:

Thank you for your question. The answer is, so far as I know, the crucifix is not used in OPC churches, and here is why:

1.The Second Commandment (Ex. 20:4-6 and Deut. 5:8-10) forbids any picture or image of God, and that would include the Son of God, even as man. At any rate we do not know what Jesus looked like as there is no physical description of him.

2.The crucifix will always end up being an object of worship—regarded as holy. History teaches as much. The bronze serpent Moses made became an object of worship and was not destroyed till King Hezekiah did it (Numbers 21:9; 2 Kings 18:1-5). Roman Catholics have worshipped it, kissed it and held it to have mystical powers.

3.Christ did not remain on the Cross. In the Roman Church Christ is said to be resacrificed each time the Mass is celebrated. This is heresy; he died once for all—Hebrews 9:25-28.

We in the OPC have learned not to trust our idolatry prone hearts not to do the same as others have in the past. Hence, no crucifixes are used. So, yes, we are opposed to it.

[WVKayaker]

Don’t be a stranger...

It's almost 8 o'clock in the MORNING here in the Philippines. I just talked with my daughter in NC as she was putting the baby to bed! That 12 hour time shift keeps me out of many "current" conversations!

...view from my back porch!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Very true. None of us can know that untilll...

Well, I hope to see everybody there. Lord Jesus, Who works wonders --- I hope He works wonders for you and yours! N'Night now, editor-surveyor.

[Gamecock]

New wine has alcohol.

If Jesus makes wine for people to celebrate, it is certainly a gift from God.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

So please tell me how strong drink is really ice tea with a bit more caffeine.

[Elsie]

Well, this belief, in one form or another, has been in place since the first generation of Christians.

Oh??

That somehow makes it RIGHT?

THIS 'belief' is recorded in Scripture:

ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.

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Houston: we have a problem.

[Elsie]

...Hard to believe Mary would be getting sloshed up or any devoutly religious group...

and yet...

 

1 Samuel 1:9-15

⁹ Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli the priest was sitting on his chair by the doorpost of the Lord’s house. ¹⁰ In her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. ¹¹ And she made a vow, saying, “Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant’s misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head.”

¹² As she kept on praying to the Lord, Eli observed her mouth. ¹³ Hannah was praying in her heart, and her lips were moving but her voice was not heard. Eli thought she was drunk ¹⁴ and said to her, “How long are you going to stay drunk? Put away your wine.”

¹⁵ “Not so, my lord,” Hannah replied, “I am a woman who is deeply troubled. I have not been drinking wine or beer; I was pouring out my soul to the Lord.

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Titus 2:3
The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

If it's 'grape juice'; I doubt that the old ladies would be WARNED about it!

[Elsie]

Some people do not find the truth to be so obvious.

[Elsie]

If you don't want to drink some wine, I will put the box in the closet!

AHhhh...

The GOOD stuff!

[Elsie]

Nice view!

Hope there’s no nasty SNAKES in the grass!

[Gamecock]

You’ve never seen my mom around grape juice.

Seriously, until Welch invented a way to keep grape juice from turning into wine and then peddled it to the pietists, this wasn’t an issue.

[Elsie]

So please tell me how strong drink is really ice tea with a bit more caffeine.

Well; iff'n you wuz a MORMON; then you'd find OTHER uses for 'strong drink'!

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Verse #7

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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 89

 

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.

 

1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

 

  1 A ^aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

  2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the ^aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and ^bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

  3 Given for a principle with ^apromise, adapted to the capacity of the ^bweak and the weakest of all ^csaints, who are or can be called saints.

  4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of ^aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of ^bconspiring men in the last days, I have ^cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

  5 That inasmuch as any man ^adrinketh ^bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

  6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, ^apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

  7 And, again, ^astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

  8 And again, tobacco is not for the ^abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

  9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

  10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome ^aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

  11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with ^aprudence and ^bthanksgiving.

  12 Yea, ^aflesh also of ^bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used ^csparingly;

  13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be ^aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or ^bfamine.

  14 All ^agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

  15 And ^athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

  16 All grain is good for the ^afood of man; as also the ^bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

  17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

  18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ^ashall receive ^bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

  19 And shall ^afind ^bwisdom and great ^ctreasures of ^dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

  20 And shall ^arun and not be ^bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

  21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the ^adestroying angel shall ^bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

---

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

[Elsie]

I’ve seen MY mom around beer.

Not a pretty sight at all.

[imardmd1]

The praise given of the wine Yeshua made made it plain that it was quality fermented wine.

OK, tell of the method by which you can say authoritatively that the wine made by Jesus at Cana was fermented wine.

In fact, it would be interesting to know how you have discerned that ant of the wine consumed at Cana was alcoholic wine.

Please do so?

[imardmd1]

What about ‘old skins’?

Irrelevant to the Cana discussion.

[imardmd1]

Fermented wine was praised in Torah.

Where?

[Gamecock]

Plain sense of the text?

I suppose you would have the guests praising the quality of thr grape juice? “Jesus, this is some mighty fine grape juice!”

[imardmd1]

Irrelevant to wine, and irrelevant to the Cana episode.

[imardmd1]

Crucifixions normally kept the individual alive for days, not hours.

Authority? Josephus? or what?

And about the side wound from being stabbed to assure He was dead? There was an incision, and both blood as well as fluid from the pericardium flowed out, excessively. His heart was greatly enlarged from the torture, IIRC from doctors' estimation. No chance naturally then to get the heart back into pumping condition ...

[imardmd1]

So; just WHERE did the 'righteous man' get the non-alcoholic wine that managed to incapacitate him?

I already said, in response to you I believe, that the qualities of the word is context-related. Whoever said that Lot wasn't aware of the power of the wine he was drinking.

And, of course, as a separate issue, what was it that made Lot righteous, considering his lifestyle and preferences? An interesting quest.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i knew if i read BB long enough, she would write something that she and i can agree, well that day has come!!

kill the fatted calf, this day calls for celebration.

here is what she wrote:

And, let us not leave out the very critical point that gets missed frequently...the early church “fathers” did not speak infallibly, they were not divinely inspired when they wrote their letters and, if what they wrote contradicts Holy Scripture, it is Scripture which holds preeminence.

now, under her own test, let’s see if Ignatius’s statement that the gnostics abstain from the Eucharist because they did not believe it was the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ “contradicts” Holy Scripture:

Matthew 26:26 now as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to his disciples and said, “take, eat; this is my body”

Ignatius said it was his flesh, Jesus said it was his body. contradiction? i don’t think so.

next up, St Paul’s first letter to the Church at Corinth:

10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

so Paul calls the Eucharist the body of Christ, but is this a contradiction to Ignatius referring to the flesh of Christ? clearly not.

BTW- the two questions posed by Paul in 10:16 would be answered YES by Paul, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Cyprian, Irenaeus, Cyril, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, Thomas and every other member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
now, the gnostics would answer these 10:16 question NO, the Eucharist is just bread.

so the question i have for BB is - when Holy Scripture contradicts the gnostics and certain 16th century reformers, which holds preeminence?

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i have spent the last two days reading what i could about the charge that the 7 epistles of Ignatius were fake.

i must say the case is very weak. for these to be fake, then the writings of Polycarp and Ireneus, both 2nd century writings, would also need to be fake.

in addition, writing in the late 3rd century accepted them as genuine, as did the whole Church before the so called Reformation.

what is never explained by those making the forgery claims are:
who forged them?
why did they forge them?

don’t forget, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist was believed by everyone in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, it was not a doctrine in dispute. surely the “forger” had no idea in 1,300-1,400 years men like Calvin would come along and revive the gnostic heresy denying the Eucharist is the Body of Christ!!

so there would be no motive of anyone to “forge” Ignatius’s name on 7 letters.

the same can not be said of those making the forgery claim. they at least realize, that if the letters are not fake, then their doctrines are false. powerful motive to claim forgery.