Oh!
I am SO shocked that you'd even MENTION something so crass in a RELIGION forum!!
Posted on 08/05/2013 10:31:02 AM PDT by Gamecock
Question:
Does the OPC use the crucifix in the church? If not, are they opposed to it?
Answer:
Thank you for your question. The answer is, so far as I know, the crucifix is not used in OPC churches, and here is why:
1.The Second Commandment (Ex. 20:4-6 and Deut. 5:8-10) forbids any picture or image of God, and that would include the Son of God, even as man. At any rate we do not know what Jesus looked like as there is no physical description of him.
2.The crucifix will always end up being an object of worship—regarded as holy. History teaches as much. The bronze serpent Moses made became an object of worship and was not destroyed till King Hezekiah did it (Numbers 21:9; 2 Kings 18:1-5). Roman Catholics have worshipped it, kissed it and held it to have mystical powers.
3.Christ did not remain on the Cross. In the Roman Church Christ is said to be resacrificed each time the Mass is celebrated. This is heresy; he died once for all—Hebrews 9:25-28.
We in the OPC have learned not to trust our idolatry prone hearts not to do the same as others have in the past. Hence, no crucifixes are used. So, yes, we are opposed to it.
The folks at Jerusalem are not talking about salvation, which is the first step in the Christian life. They are covering the continuance into progressive sanctification, into walking the walk. And that is about works, in the journey into spiritual maturity.
Of course, for Circumcision or Uncircumsision, salvation is NOT by the heuristic algebra:
Faith + Works => Salvation
as some erroneous theologies would insist. Salvation's benefit is by this arrangement:
Faith + Salvation => Works
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10)
This is about rewards, about furthering His interests as His bondslaves. It is about making. inducting, and instructing disciple-followers.
Elsie: And we KNOW this because the bible Doesn't say it.
HE just slipped up a bit at the marriage in Cana.
John 2:9-10
Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sorry for you, Elsie. Your doctrine comes from a spurious source, you have a compromised translation, you seem to display a mocking spirit, so I'm going to let God's Bible show you what the inside of the woodshed looks like.
Here's some correct doctrine on this matter:
**********
The following from the late Bruce Lackey, professor at Tennessee Temple University:
============
Jesus did not drink or make alcoholic wine. Here are ten (10) proofs from Scripture.
THE FIRST REASON IS BECAUSE OF HIS HOLY NATURE.
In Heb. 7:26, we read that the Lord Jesus is "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners." No doubt, the Saviour, being God in the flesh, had an air of holiness about Himself that could be seen by even the most casual observer. For instance, the profane soldiers, who were sent to arrest Him, gave as their reason for returning without Him, that "never a man spake like this man." (John 7:46) The words of Jesus were different; He, no doubt, had a very holy appearance, character, and speech. Why is this so important? Consider this illustration. The word "cider" may mean an alcoholic beverage, or plain apple juice. Suppose we lived during the 1920s, prohibition days, and were approached by two people offering us a drink of cider. One of the persons, we knew to be one of the holiest men in town, faithful to the house of God, separated from the world, diligent in prayers, always witnessing to others; the other was a known liquor dealer. If each one offered us a drink of "his very own cider," we would assume that the holy person's was no more than apple juice, but there would be no doubt about our opinion regarding the liquor dealer's cider! Obviously, the character of a person influences what that one does.
Since the Lord Jesus Christ was "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners," we may safely assume that He would not make that which is called in Scripture a mocker and deceiver of man, causing untold misery.
A SECOND REASON: HE WOULD NOT CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE.
In Mt. 5:17-18, Christ made this clear, saying, "Think not that I am come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Therefore, Christ could not have contradicted Hab. 2:15, "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!"
Certainly, Jesus knew that this verse was in the Bible; He was well-acquainted with Scripture, since it is His Word and was written about Him. He did not come to violate Scripture, but to fulfill it. He could not have done so, if He had made alcoholic wine and had given it to his neighbor.
Some people object to the use of this verse by saying that it would apply only to one who would give his neighbor drink for the purpose of looking on his nakedness. But we must remember: when one gives his neighbor something which will make him drunk, he is putting himself in the very class of those who do so in order to look on their nakedness. And since the Scripture commands us to "abstain from all appearance of evil" (1 Th. 5:22), we can be sure that the Lord Jesus would not have done something that would have been associated with such an evil practice as that described in Hab. 2:15. For the same reason, no Christian should be engaged in the selling of alcoholic beverage.
THE THIRD REASON IS: A PRIEST OF GOD IS NOT TO DRINK WINE OR STRONG DRINK :
Leviticus 10:9-11 commands the priest of God, “Do not drink wine nor strong drink… that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statues which the Lord hath spoken..." Now, since Heb. 2:17 calls Christ "a merciful and faithful high priest," we would expect Him to obey all Scriptures pertaining to that office. If He had made or drunk alcoholic wine, He would have disobeyed these verses and would have been disqualified from teaching the children of Israel the statutes of the Lord.
THE FOURTH REASON IS FOUND IN A PASSAGE WHICH WE HAVE ALREADY CONSIDERED:
Proverbs 31:4-5 prohibits kings and princes from drinking alcoholic wine or any other strong drink. If they had done so, their judgment would have been perverted.
It was necessary for Christ to obey these verses also, since He was Prince of Peace (Is. 9:6) and King of Kings (Rev. 19:16). In Mt. 27:11, He admitted to being the King of the Jews. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey's colt, to fulfill (Zech. 9:9, which prophesied that Israel's king would enter the city in just that way. Undoubtedly, He was king, and as such, would have had to obey Pr. 31:4-5.
THE FIFTH REASON IS:
Christ did not come to mock or deceive people (that is Satan’s job), yet Pr. 20:1 says that wine does both. Rather than coming to mock or deceive, He came to save!
REASON SIX IS:
He did not come to send people to Hell. We have already seen that Is. 5:11-14 teaches that Hell had to be enlarged because of the drinking of alcoholic beverage. Christ did not come to send people to Hell; listen to John. 3:17: "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
REASON SEVEN IS:
Christ did not come to cast a stumbling block before anyone; yet Rom. 14:21 teaches that a person who gives another alcoholic wine does just that. "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."
Everyone who has studied the problem of alcoholism has learned that some people cannot handle any amount of alcohol, while others may drink one or two "social" drinks and stop. Experts do not know why this is true; various theories have been propounded, but nothing has been proved to be true regarding every person. Some say it is chemical; others insist that it must be psychological. The fact is, we do not know for certain. In any given group of people, there would be several potential alcoholics. What a shame it would be for a person, who is a potential slave to it, to get his first taste at the Lord's table in church, then proceed down the road of misery to an alcoholic's grave!
I certainly would not want my children to get their first taste of alcohol at the family meal; nor would I want them to get it at church. One or more of them could well be potential alcoholics. As evidence that this is possible, we should consider that some denominations which serve alcoholic wine in their religious services also operate homes for alcoholic priests!
But we can be absolutely sure that Christ did not come to cause others to stumble!
THE EIGHTH REASON:
In John 2, the miracle of turning water into wine does not require or impute that the wine was alcoholic in content. Many insist that it was, on the basis of verse 10, which says, "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse; but thou hast kept the good wine until now." They would say that, in those days, it was common to serve the best alcoholic wine at first, saving the worst until later, when men's tastes have been dulled by much drinking.
But the point is just the opposite here! These people could definitely recognize that the wine which Jesus made was much better than what they had been served at first. This could not have been possible if they were already well on their way to becoming intoxicated! The fact is, neither the wine which they had at first, nor that which Christ made, was alcoholic. Many people today are not aware of the fact that methods for preserving “wine” in its unfermented state were as common and as much used in ancient times as they are today, so as to have a non-intoxicating beverage year-round, suitable for children as well as adults.
REASON NINE IS FOUND IN THE SAME PASSAGE:
The Lord Jesus Christ would not have gotten glory from making drunk people drunker. Verse 11 is most important when it states that, by this miracle, Jesus "manifested forth his glory." Verse 10 indicates that the people had drunk quite a bit of whatever kind of wine they were drinking. If it had been alcoholic, they would have been intoxicated, or nearly so. Had Christ made alcoholic wine, He would have made drunk people drunker, or almost-drunk people completely drunk! Such a deed would certainly not have manifested any glory to Him!
THIS CHAPTER ALSO GIVES US THE TENTH REASON:
Making drunk people drunker would not have caused His disciples to believe more strongly on him, yet verse 11 says that, as a result of what He did in turning the water into wine, "his disciples believed on him."
John 1:41 shows that they had already believed on Him as Messiah; this was a deepening of their faith and a proof that they had not been wrong. Would making drunk people drunker inspire such faith? The opposite would be likely! They were not looking for a Messiah who would pass out free booze!
Thus, because of the description of this miracle and its result, we must conclude that this wine was non-alcoholic.
*********
My thoughts on this are:
APPLICATION ONE:
Do you see how this applies to Church doctrine?
"And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom" (Matt. 26:27-29).
"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come" (I Cor. 11:25).
Since Jesus would not have made or drunk alcoholic wine, there would be no alcohol in His blood stream. Thus no wine used as a symbol of His blood would contain one iota of alcohol, either. Those assemblies who use alcoholic wine for the Lord’s Supper thus give an incorrect and inferior representation of this token of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, and do damage to the memory of the pouring out of His pure, incorruptible blood for us. Furthermore, they may well induce the alcoholic to resume his habit, and seemingly condone the drinking of alcoholic beverage. Nothing could be farther from the intent of the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper.
As far as showing His death, do you think His moments of agony were in the slightest measure dulled by the presence of alcohol in His body and brain? Do you think we were represented before God by one in the slightest inebriated, or willing to be so? No, He experienced God’s wrath to the fullest, for us, without the slightest of alleviation. Remember, He refused the soldiers’ anasthetic, vinegar laced with gall, a narcotic (Matt 27:34). So there we see that He refused to have His suffering dulled with drugs, as well. The “wine” representing His pure blood will have no toxic content. Would you give old, moldy (fermented) bread as representing His body? Of course not. Neither should we give old, alcoholic (incompletely fermented) wine or vinegar (completely fermented grape juice).
So, use of alcoholic wine in the Remembrance Supper is an unwholesome and unscriptural practice, to be avoided by the Christian seeking to honor the Lord in showing His death.
APPLICATION TWO:
Do you see how this applies to personal holiness?
"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation, because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (I Peter 1:15-16).
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3)
Do I want to be like Jesus? As a mediator priest, He could not partake of wine while serving God. If I want to be like Him, I must do likewise. (1 John 3:3)
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Matt 5:8)
Do I want to see Jesus? Then I must be holy, pure as He is, even now, at least in my heart. If I really am saved, God has made me clean (free from sin) through the washing in the (non-alcohol-containing) blood of Christ (Rom. 3:23-26), thus making me pure in His sight. I am to be kept clean through the washing of the water by the Word. I must let the Word of God displace alcohol in my thoughts. (Eph. 5:26-27)
"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me" (Psalm 66:18)
Do I want Him to hear me? Then I must not even dwell on, or relish in my mind, the thought of unholy behavior. That includes not even thinking on, let alone drinking, alcoholic beverage.
I must remember that the God of Heaven is not the only god that answers prayer. So does the god of this world, Satan. If I know am regarding iniquity in my heart, but my prayers are being answered, I can be sure that it is Satan who is answering them, so he can delude me into imagining that God approves of my unrighteous thoughts. I must examine my thought life to make sure that God hears; and the 'answers' to make sure they are proceeding from His Throne.
The cry God is waiting to hear from the repentant soul is, "You are right concerning my self and my sins! Oh, I so want to abandon them! I appeal to your promise of forgiveness and of cleansing through the blood of Christ -- please, please, save me!"
"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:28-29).
Do I want to serve Him acceptably? Then as one non-action, I ought to wholly abstain from wine or alcoholic beverage, and from groups that practice its use; or even dwelling on the thought of it in a reminiscent, yearning way. “Grace” is the God-given, undeserved gift of having the desire and the power to do His will. I might think on such things of the old life, but I can be sure that God will reprove and chasten me for that reversion, so that I might move on. He is a consuming fire, to be feared and reverenced, as He lovingly develops a holy ardor for Him in my heart.
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (I Peter 2:5).
Do I want to fulfill my role in the holy priestood of believers, ministering the Word to unsaved others, seeing them receive the gift of eternal life, and helping them on to maturity? Then I must make room for the filling of the Spirit, which is one and the same as letting the Word of God dwell in me richly in all wisdom, so that I may sing His Song, and speak His Words. I must let meditation on the Word of Christ, preparing for and receiving teaching and admonishing, be my central social responsibility and occupation. I ought to allow singing and making melody – singing with grace in my heart to the Lord – magnifying The Lord High Priest Christ Jesus – giving thanks always for all things to God and The Father – to displace alcoholic or other toxin-spawned reveries. With such sacrifices God is well pleased!
Alcoholic beverages have no place whatsoever in the life of His churches or of His regenerated believer-disciple-priest-soldiers. Nor should it ever come into the home where warriors for Christ are nurtured from the cradle on.
If a person is going to Hell and the Lake of Fire, it will be in his/her old body; if that’s what one wants. It will appear with the owner in it at the Great White Throne judgment.
No, we are talking about the Crucifixion of Christ. Something that we Catholics do not take lightly.
Their recognition of The Risen Jesus was not by His pre-death body. Clearly He looked unremarkably human in form, but his body was not a flesh-and-blood body. It was a spiritual body which they had not seen before. But they recognized him by the bloodless bluish permanently open nail-prints in His hands and feet. Those stigmata were further substantiated by His 40-day perambulations and teaching (of which we have very little record). I believe his body was flesh and bone. His blood was left in heaven when he came back from his high-priestly duties to strengthen the brethren until he ascended again.
How many disciples entered their chamber through the wall?
Did He need to have the stone rolled away to get out of the tomb?
When was the last time you walked through a door without opening it in your flesh-and-blood body?
Why is my comment a nonsequitur to you?
Bruce Lackey may believe that he knows scripture (He really doesn't.), but he doesn't know anything about chemistry or food preservation. The juice from squeezed grapes has natural sugars in it. The skins of the grapes have naturally occurring yeasts on them. The yeast feeds on the sugars and releases the alcohol as a waste product. If you add more sugar you get a higher alcohol content.
If the process goes awry you will get vinegar.
There are two ways to halt/delay the fermentation process. The first is to keep the juice very cold which inhibits yeast production and second is the pasteurization process invented by Dr. Welch in the 1800's(Of Welch's grape juice and jam fame) which involves heating the juice and then cooling it fairly quickly.
Now I am certain that you will find a way to take exception to this, that is your choice. I have over 40 years of wine making experience.
Do an experiment take some grapes a pound or so will do. Put them in a bowl and mash them up. Take 3-4 layers of cheese cloth and strain the juice through this and squeeze out as much of the remaining juice as you can.
Then let it sit. With out pasteurization or preservatives it will spoil very quickly.
This will be my last post on this topic. Jesus was fully human and fully God at the same time. He had two natures (Hypostatic union). His divine nature was spirit it was both infinite and eternal. It did not require anything to "be"
He also possessed a fully human nature. His human nature allowed Him to walk among us as a man. To exist this nature required the intake of food and drink. It also required air for him to breathe and for him to expel waste products. All of this was required for him to be fully human.
The important thing to remember is that He never stopped being fully human. It would have meant nothing for His divine nature to be resurrected with out His human nature/body to be as well. That would not have been conquering death.
I’m sure a lot of Thalidomide deformed folks would choose something a bit different that what they had before...
Both sides agree, for the most part, that we are 'saved' by Faith.
Where we differ is it appears that one group says we HAVE to have 'works' to KEEP our Salvation.
The other side says, "Nope; we're KEPT by Faith as well.
SEEM to?
You bet your bippy I do!
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Mighty bold talk from a one-eyed fatman!
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
And I was talking about certain physical characteristics of blood flowing from a wound.
Does THIS offend you THAT much?
Oh!
I am SO shocked that you'd even MENTION something so crass in a RELIGION forum!!
UMmmm...
OK.....
Matthew 231. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
He seems to have ignored the REASONING behind the 'giveth him drink'.
And yet He hung out with hookers and taxcollectors!
1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Elsie: SEEM to? You bet your bippy I do!
Holy Spirit: "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Prov. 20:1)
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Elsie's compromised 'translation': " 'Are you still so dull?' Jesus asked them" (Mt. 15:16) (no date in the chronology of Jesus' ministry)(no credits)(no context explaining the application)
Holy Spirit: "But Jesus said, 'Are you yourselves still also unintelligent ones? Do you not yet comprehend that everything which makes entrance into the mouth customarily finds room in the stomach and it is being cast out into a toilet? But the things making exit out of the mouth exit out of the heart. And those things defile the human. For out of the heart exit wicked contrivances, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things persistently defiling the human. But the act of eating with unwashed hands is not defiling the human.' " (Mt. 15:16-20, APT*)
(The timing was early Nisan, about April, AD 32, location = Gennesaret)
(The context here is Jesus expounding the use of figurative-literal language which He used to give the parable to the scribes and Pharisees, calling them hypocrites. Peter took this parable literally, and scolded Jesus for using crude terms. But Jesus conducted a little lesson in which He taught them the use of a dramatic illustration to make His point.)
--------
Elsie's compromised 'translation':"The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter. 'First let the children eat all they want,' he told her, 'for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs.' " (Mk. 7:26-27)(no credits) (no context)
Holy Spirit: "Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by race^. And she was repeatedly asking Him that He cast out the demon out of her daughter. But Jesus said to her, 'Permit the children to be satisfied with food first! For it is not intrinsically good to take the children's bread loaf and to cast it to the little puppies.' " (Mk. 7:26-27, APT*)
(The timing was late Nisan (about April) AD 32)
( The context was that just a few days later than the above episode recorded in Matthew and also in a few verses in Mark just before this passage, Jesus went way out of his way, traveling north to Tyre and Sidon, just to hear the pleas of this troubled woman. In this passage, Jesus again used a figurative-literal illustration of the situation when responding to the woman's request. The remarkable insight here is that the woman had spiritual understanding, grasped the figurative illustration, and responded with like figurative-literal language! Of course, he was there just to grant her healing for her daughter, acknowledging her insight, as a "dog"/heathen, into a spiritual problem already known by him. This passage demonstrates that the writer recognized the use of figurative language in illustrating a spiritual principle.)
=====
^ = articular construction
* = "A Precise Translation" (from the Pierpont & Robinson Byzantine/Majority Textform, with embedded chronology) by Dr. Fred Wittman, "The Gospels" available from the publisher:
********
"not wise" = foolish
"Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise:
why shouldest thou destroy thyself?
Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish:
why shouldest thou die before thy time?
It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this;
yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand:
for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all" (Eccl. 7:16-18 AV)
I think the best explanation (inasmuch as our small brains can explain anything) was where Paul said it's like putting a seed in the ground. What is sown is our current bodies --- like the seeds. A seed has, in a sense, the whole plant in it, but in potential form. The seed is the cause of the plant coming up, but, more, it IS the plant, in a form that must die (go into the ground and cease to exist as a seed) and then --- the selfsame thing --- rise again as a plant.
Job said, "And after my flesh has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes -—- I, and not another!"(Job 19:26-27).
I’d go for 18!
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