Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[NYer]

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

• “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?

[Elsie]

I’m a member of a Wesleyan congregation.

[Elsie]

Dem old school; we new school...

We be LATTER day saints!

—MormonDude(When would be a good ti... aw heck - y’all know the rest!)

[Elsie]

God's Name is I AM.

Not We ARE?

[Elsie]

Sigh...

CONTEXT!

[Elsie]

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you ?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.

 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."  

[Heart-Rest]

Praying for you and your grandson, and your whole family.

[SumProVita]

The early Church Fathers are not in alignment with what you claim. Here is SOME of what they say:

“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven...’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail...” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“’...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“...folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid...” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“...Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others...” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“...the chief of the disciples...the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church...” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

“[B]lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom...” Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359).

“[F]or the good of unity blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles, and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest.” Optatus of Milevis, De Schismate Donatistorum, 7:3(A.D. 370).

“[T]he Lord spoke to Peter a little earlier; he spoke to one, that from one he might found unity, soon delivering the same to all.” Pacian, To Sympronianus, Epistle 3:2 (AD 372).

“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter (Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me...I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.” Ephraim, Homily 4:1, (A.D. 373).

“[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built.” Epiphanius, In Ancorato, 9:6 (A.D. 374).

“Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church.” Basil, In Isaias, 2:66 (A.D. 375).

“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 375).

And, regarding Paul:

”It was right indeed that he (Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches.” Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Galatians, PL 17:344 (A.D. 384).

Also, consider what Origen says here about the Church, which is exactly what is said in the Bible itself:

“We are not to give heed to those who say, Behold here is Christ, but show him not in the Church, which is filled with brightness from the East even unto the West; which is filled with true light; is the ‘PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH’; in which, as a whole, is the whole advent of the Son of Man, who saith to all men throughout the universe, ‘Behold, I am with you all the days of life even unto the consumption of the world.’” Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Tract 30 (A.D. 244).

[Elsie]

I just did a full Chaplet for the child.

Perhaps there are Tibetans lurking that could give the wheels a spin as well...

[Elsie]

Thank you. That little one can use every bit of help that can be provided, every prayer made.

INDEED!

[Elsie]

I do expect the theologically obtuse among you to misunderstand and / or say something completely stupid.

Here am I - send me!

[SumProVita]

Thanks be to our Lord, Jesus Christ, for His great mercy, love and healing for your grandson.

[FourtySeven]

Thanks, and thanks for sharing that passage. I’d never considered that before, and it nicely closes the “circle” (so to speak). That is to say, clearly we have from Scripture:

- the prayers of the righteous availeth much (Jas 5:16)

And

- The fact that God Himself doesn’t reject the notion of Moses and Samuel coming to Him in prayer for His people (cf Jer 15:1) even though they are already “saints that have departed”

So the only thing one can “argue” at this point is as I’ve said all along: Whether or not it’s possible for those in heaven to “hear” our prayers for intercession.

I leave that to the reader to decide for himself as these debates can be toxic for me after a while so I have no desire to engage them fully.

I would submit though, for anyone who doesn’t have a pre-determined agenda against the Church, I don’t think it’s that objectionable at all to believe those in heaven can indeed hear our cries for help. After all, it seems quite reasonable to me that at least our departed loved ones will still care for us even in heaven. That is, I doubt they stop caring about us just because they are “there”.

But I guess that’s what some believe. I guess some believe their departed loved ones don’t care about them anymore enough to at least hear a prayer from their loved ones here on earth. Or I guess they believe in some “God” that would be so cruel as to prevent them from hearing what their loved ones on earth would want to share with them.

That’s certainly not my view of what God, or heaven could ever be like. And I don’t care if someone objects with the foolishly utilized “Scripturally based” (Scripturally based in their opinion, more like taken out of context) argument of ,”the wisdom of man is foolishness to God” and/or “you have to out on the mind of Christ, and discard the carnal mind” which such people use as justification to not use the brain God GAVE them ( hmm, i wonder what God says about not using one’s talents again...) to reach reasonable conclusions.

No sir. I have no desire to converse with such willfully obtuse children anymore. I simply do not have the time ( or patience, obviously ).

So thank you again, for both your compliment and assistance. It (your contribution) surely will be a help to those with an open mind and/or heart (as Paisan seems to be).

To the rest, my advice is to not waste your precious time.

[metmom]

I don’t remember when I first heard about it.

[metmom]

bb:“what the Bible said concerning the nature of Almighty God”

JCB:What edition did they cite?

What difference does that make?

How old ARE you?

[metmom]

The ones primarily used by Protestants do not use the Greek documents available to the Church fathers in the time of Nicaea. They tend to use manuscripts dating anywhere from 7 to 9 centuries after.

Source? Would you care to provide documentation for the statements you keep throwing out as fact?

Your track record is not so great at the moment, but if you're going to keep speaking so authoritatively, you need to back yourself up.

[xzins]

There is nothing here that indicates or teaches that angels were prayed to, or even knew all the contents of the golden censer.

Yes, but "we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". Praying to is different than asking someone to pray with you.

[metmom]

Cynical bear needs to answer some questions if he wants answers to his. He has never answered any of my questions, so I do not feel compelled to answer his.

He asked first. Go ahead and answer his instead of throwing other questions out there in alleged response to his and see what happens.

Also, FR courtesy seems to be seriously lacking amongst FRoman Catholics. It's protocol to courtesy ping someone whom you mention, especially by name, in a post.

[xzins]

Thank you so much, SumProVita, for joining with us in our appeal to the Throne of God...of Grace.

[xzins]

Thank you so much, Heart-Rest. Your reality of freeper handle is needed by the parents.

[xzins]

Thank you Rashputin...and may He lead us to victory.