Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[Elsie]

I’m a member of a Wesleyan congregation.

[Elsie]

Dem old school; we new school...

We be LATTER day saints!

—MormonDude(When would be a good ti... aw heck - y’all know the rest!)

[Elsie]

God's Name is I AM.

Not We ARE?

[Elsie]

Sigh...

CONTEXT!

[Elsie]

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you ?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.

 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."  

[Heart-Rest]

Praying for you and your grandson, and your whole family.

[SumProVita]

The early Church Fathers are not in alignment with what you claim. Here is SOME of what they say:

“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven...’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail...” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“’...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“...folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid...” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“...Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others...” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“...the chief of the disciples...the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church...” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

“[B]lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom...” Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359).

“[F]or the good of unity blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles, and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest.” Optatus of Milevis, De Schismate Donatistorum, 7:3(A.D. 370).

“[T]he Lord spoke to Peter a little earlier; he spoke to one, that from one he might found unity, soon delivering the same to all.” Pacian, To Sympronianus, Epistle 3:2 (AD 372).

“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter (Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me...I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.” Ephraim, Homily 4:1, (A.D. 373).

“[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built.” Epiphanius, In Ancorato, 9:6 (A.D. 374).

“Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church.” Basil, In Isaias, 2:66 (A.D. 375).

“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 375).

And, regarding Paul:

”It was right indeed that he (Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches.” Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Galatians, PL 17:344 (A.D. 384).

Also, consider what Origen says here about the Church, which is exactly what is said in the Bible itself:

“We are not to give heed to those who say, Behold here is Christ, but show him not in the Church, which is filled with brightness from the East even unto the West; which is filled with true light; is the ‘PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH’; in which, as a whole, is the whole advent of the Son of Man, who saith to all men throughout the universe, ‘Behold, I am with you all the days of life even unto the consumption of the world.’” Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Tract 30 (A.D. 244).

[Elsie]

I just did a full Chaplet for the child.

Perhaps there are Tibetans lurking that could give the wheels a spin as well...

[Elsie]

Thank you. That little one can use every bit of help that can be provided, every prayer made.

INDEED!

[Elsie]

I do expect the theologically obtuse among you to misunderstand and / or say something completely stupid.

Here am I - send me!

[SumProVita]

Thanks be to our Lord, Jesus Christ, for His great mercy, love and healing for your grandson.

[FourtySeven]

Thanks, and thanks for sharing that passage. I’d never considered that before, and it nicely closes the “circle” (so to speak). That is to say, clearly we have from Scripture:

- the prayers of the righteous availeth much (Jas 5:16)

And

- The fact that God Himself doesn’t reject the notion of Moses and Samuel coming to Him in prayer for His people (cf Jer 15:1) even though they are already “saints that have departed”

So the only thing one can “argue” at this point is as I’ve said all along: Whether or not it’s possible for those in heaven to “hear” our prayers for intercession.

I leave that to the reader to decide for himself as these debates can be toxic for me after a while so I have no desire to engage them fully.

I would submit though, for anyone who doesn’t have a pre-determined agenda against the Church, I don’t think it’s that objectionable at all to believe those in heaven can indeed hear our cries for help. After all, it seems quite reasonable to me that at least our departed loved ones will still care for us even in heaven. That is, I doubt they stop caring about us just because they are “there”.

But I guess that’s what some believe. I guess some believe their departed loved ones don’t care about them anymore enough to at least hear a prayer from their loved ones here on earth. Or I guess they believe in some “God” that would be so cruel as to prevent them from hearing what their loved ones on earth would want to share with them.

That’s certainly not my view of what God, or heaven could ever be like. And I don’t care if someone objects with the foolishly utilized “Scripturally based” (Scripturally based in their opinion, more like taken out of context) argument of ,”the wisdom of man is foolishness to God” and/or “you have to out on the mind of Christ, and discard the carnal mind” which such people use as justification to not use the brain God GAVE them ( hmm, i wonder what God says about not using one’s talents again...) to reach reasonable conclusions.

No sir. I have no desire to converse with such willfully obtuse children anymore. I simply do not have the time ( or patience, obviously ).

So thank you again, for both your compliment and assistance. It (your contribution) surely will be a help to those with an open mind and/or heart (as Paisan seems to be).

To the rest, my advice is to not waste your precious time.

[metmom]

I don’t remember when I first heard about it.

[metmom]

bb:“what the Bible said concerning the nature of Almighty God”

JCB:What edition did they cite?

What difference does that make?

How old ARE you?

[metmom]

The ones primarily used by Protestants do not use the Greek documents available to the Church fathers in the time of Nicaea. They tend to use manuscripts dating anywhere from 7 to 9 centuries after.

Source? Would you care to provide documentation for the statements you keep throwing out as fact?

Your track record is not so great at the moment, but if you're going to keep speaking so authoritatively, you need to back yourself up.

[xzins]

There is nothing here that indicates or teaches that angels were prayed to, or even knew all the contents of the golden censer.

Yes, but "we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". Praying to is different than asking someone to pray with you.

[metmom]

Cynical bear needs to answer some questions if he wants answers to his. He has never answered any of my questions, so I do not feel compelled to answer his.

He asked first. Go ahead and answer his instead of throwing other questions out there in alleged response to his and see what happens.

Also, FR courtesy seems to be seriously lacking amongst FRoman Catholics. It's protocol to courtesy ping someone whom you mention, especially by name, in a post.

[xzins]

Thank you so much, SumProVita, for joining with us in our appeal to the Throne of God...of Grace.

[xzins]

Thank you so much, Heart-Rest. Your reality of freeper handle is needed by the parents.

[xzins]

Thank you Rashputin...and may He lead us to victory.