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Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?
catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; deadsaints; doctrine; prayer; scripture
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To: Paisan
We only ask them to pray for us

How is that not praying TO them?

A quick google search for Catholic prayers also shows the fallacy of that statement. There are a plethora of prayers TO saints asking them FOR things.

201 posted on 07/14/2013 5:12:00 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: SumProVita

Surprised you know that since the Bible is so incomplete.


202 posted on 07/14/2013 5:12:28 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: metmom

We don’t. Why do protestants lie about Catholic religious practices?

You’ll have to ask them.


203 posted on 07/14/2013 5:12:54 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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To: CynicalBear

Thankfully we don’t pray to them either.


204 posted on 07/14/2013 5:13:59 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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To: Paisan; Iscool
We mortals assign “virtue” to humans - Mother Teresa - for example. I believe that these “virtues” are “recognized” in Heaven. And THAT, is why, WE pray to the SAINTS...

Which makes you all respecters of persons, which are forbidden to do in James, as showing partiality is a sin.

205 posted on 07/14/2013 5:14:37 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Very foolish post. From the time of the early Church the intercession of saints have been a common practice. Indeed, the very miraculous cures itself attributable to the saints is a testament in itself. Once again we have low-information “Joel Osteen-type” Christians who flock to these posts to deny two millennia of irrefutable Catholic belief and tradition with sophomoric references to the Bible. The curse of the Reformation lives on.


206 posted on 07/14/2013 5:14:50 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: NYer; All

Dinner is about ready and I need to serve it. I leave this with you:

What Catholics mean by Tradition is not the same that Jesus complains about when he says, ``So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.’’ (Mt 15:6) and ``You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.’’ (Mk 7:8). Jesus here means human traditions, that is, practices that men devise that may even surround the worship of God, and he condemns especially putting ritual ahead of the needs of one’s neighbor.

Catholics mean by Tradition (capitalized), the beliefs and practices that Jesus gave to mankind through the Apostles. It is this Divine Tradition that St. Paul encourages us to follow:

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Cor 11:2)

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thess 2:15)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. (2 Thess 3:6)

What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:9)

It is important to note that St. Paul says that the traditions were taught not only through writing (letters), but also by word of mouth and by example.

One charge leveled against the Catholic Church is that the Magisterium, or teaching authority, is continuously revealing the teachings of Christ. In actuality, the Church teaches that the period of divine revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. The Magisterium only re-presents the sacred deposit of Christ’s teachings to each new generation, explaining to each age using in terms of its particular language and ideas the same unchanging truths of faith.

The Divine Tradition is part of this sacred deposit of Divine Revelation that Christ entrusted to the Church and which her Magisterium guards from all falsehood. The other part of that sacred deposit is Sacred Scripture.

God bless all of you...sincerely.


207 posted on 07/14/2013 5:15:19 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: circlecity

Jerome was concerned that he lacked hebrew originals. He didn’t know what we know now that many of these books were written originally in Greek. Of the ones originally published in Hebrew - we have better manuscripts today that available to Jerome.

Oddly enough the list coincides precisely with the gap between the Greek and Hebrew originals. I wonder why that is.


208 posted on 07/14/2013 5:16:36 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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To: Salvation

“Luke and John written shortly after 70 A.D.”


For Luke, this is an impossibility, because Paul quotes Luke’s Gospel according to the Greek he employed, and Paul likely perished sometime in the early 60s.

1Ti_5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Luk_10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Notice also that it is called “scripture.”

The Book of Acts also must have been written before 70AD, because it contains none of the events that occurred 60+ or the destruction of the Jewish Temple, which would have been considered by the Christian church as worthwhile to note not just because of the 3 or so million people who died, but because it was the fulfillment of prophecy.


209 posted on 07/14/2013 5:16:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Did you ever hear of journaling?

Of course Luke wrote some of it while he was with Paul.


210 posted on 07/14/2013 5:18:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Rome denied that it was scripture in the 4th century”

Ooh. That’s gonna take a [[citation needed]].

“And what, exactly, is your point?”

The point is that Origen’s list differs from the modern canon, and his wasn’t the only one. While again there was substantial overlap but they did differ.


211 posted on 07/14/2013 5:18:55 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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To: JCBreckenridge; CynicalBear
Ecclesiastes 9:5“neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”

JCB: “Pray for one another” - Jesus.

Scripture reference for that?

And if we are commanded to pray FOR each other, they can do it without our asking because we are not commanded to pray TO each other.

212 posted on 07/14/2013 5:19:54 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Steelfish

“Very foolish post. From the time of the early Church the intercession of saints have been a common practice”

Well Steel, please post evidence from before 100 BC that demonstrates conclusively that the Church practiced or encouraged believers to pray to saints who had physically died. That first 100 years should adequately cover the traditions being passed along to each new Christian.


213 posted on 07/14/2013 5:20:06 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” - Tacitus)
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To: FourtySeven

We are never taught to pray to those who have gone on before us. The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient

\


214 posted on 07/14/2013 5:20:07 PM PDT by Catsrus (`)
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To: NYer
The Bible doesn't say it.

Furthermore, no saint whether on earth or in Heaven is Omni-present.

Saints in Heaven cannot hear every prayer on earth. Only god has the power to do that.

215 posted on 07/14/2013 5:20:32 PM PDT by what's up
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To: SumProVita

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Cor 11:2)”

Where is the list of those traditions Paul was referring to...?


216 posted on 07/14/2013 5:21:25 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” - Tacitus)
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To: JCBreckenridge; circlecity

“Jerome was concerned that he lacked hebrew originals.”


Jerome wasn’t concerned that he lacked the “Hebrew originals.” He was concerned that the Jews did not consider them canonical, and so did not include them. 1 Maccabees is available in Hebrew, so he said, but he did not include it. There are no new “manuscripts” that suddenly make Judith, for example, canonical scripture, despite it being filled with historical and geographical errors.


217 posted on 07/14/2013 5:23:18 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: metmom

This is what I am taking from the arguments here:

me: “Mom, Dad, I have a test in school next week. Please help me with my studying”

parents: “All the answers are in this text book. Study it, and don’t ask anyone to help you study.”


218 posted on 07/14/2013 5:23:19 PM PDT by womanvet (Amnesty for aliens? Do the Roswell critters get to vote?)
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To: NYer
I am one who questions why one would pray to any saint. Jesus became the pathway to God - the one and only pathway and it is a direct line. When those who followed Him asked Him to teach them to pray, He said, "Our Father, which art in heaven..."

Trying to argue that they are alive (which should be obvious to any believer) makes a weak argument about the bigger issue - why pray to the butler when you have a direct line to the owner of the mansion? I understand that they are asked/expected to "intercede", but what the hey - where does the Bible say that is the case?

219 posted on 07/14/2013 5:25:18 PM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Jerome wasn’t concerned that he lacked the “Hebrew originals.”

Which again is why the list of books coincides with his list of hebrew originals. ;) Also why Luther himself cites the EXACT SAME argument.

I’m sorry, but I’m gonna go with what Jerome and Luther actually said.


220 posted on 07/14/2013 5:26:39 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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