Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
How is that not praying TO them?
A quick google search for Catholic prayers also shows the fallacy of that statement. There are a plethora of prayers TO saints asking them FOR things.
Surprised you know that since the Bible is so incomplete.
We don’t. Why do protestants lie about Catholic religious practices?
You’ll have to ask them.
Thankfully we don’t pray to them either.
Which makes you all respecters of persons, which are forbidden to do in James, as showing partiality is a sin.
Very foolish post. From the time of the early Church the intercession of saints have been a common practice. Indeed, the very miraculous cures itself attributable to the saints is a testament in itself. Once again we have low-information “Joel Osteen-type” Christians who flock to these posts to deny two millennia of irrefutable Catholic belief and tradition with sophomoric references to the Bible. The curse of the Reformation lives on.
Dinner is about ready and I need to serve it. I leave this with you:
What Catholics mean by Tradition is not the same that Jesus complains about when he says, ``So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.’’ (Mt 15:6) and ``You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.’’ (Mk 7:8). Jesus here means human traditions, that is, practices that men devise that may even surround the worship of God, and he condemns especially putting ritual ahead of the needs of one’s neighbor.
Catholics mean by Tradition (capitalized), the beliefs and practices that Jesus gave to mankind through the Apostles. It is this Divine Tradition that St. Paul encourages us to follow:
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Cor 11:2)
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thess 2:15)
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. (2 Thess 3:6)
What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:9)
It is important to note that St. Paul says that the traditions were taught not only through writing (letters), but also by word of mouth and by example.
One charge leveled against the Catholic Church is that the Magisterium, or teaching authority, is continuously revealing the teachings of Christ. In actuality, the Church teaches that the period of divine revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. The Magisterium only re-presents the sacred deposit of Christ’s teachings to each new generation, explaining to each age using in terms of its particular language and ideas the same unchanging truths of faith.
The Divine Tradition is part of this sacred deposit of Divine Revelation that Christ entrusted to the Church and which her Magisterium guards from all falsehood. The other part of that sacred deposit is Sacred Scripture.
God bless all of you...sincerely.
Jerome was concerned that he lacked hebrew originals. He didn’t know what we know now that many of these books were written originally in Greek. Of the ones originally published in Hebrew - we have better manuscripts today that available to Jerome.
Oddly enough the list coincides precisely with the gap between the Greek and Hebrew originals. I wonder why that is.
“Luke and John written shortly after 70 A.D.”
For Luke, this is an impossibility, because Paul quotes Luke’s Gospel according to the Greek he employed, and Paul likely perished sometime in the early 60s.
1Ti_5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Luk_10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
Notice also that it is called “scripture.”
The Book of Acts also must have been written before 70AD, because it contains none of the events that occurred 60+ or the destruction of the Jewish Temple, which would have been considered by the Christian church as worthwhile to note not just because of the 3 or so million people who died, but because it was the fulfillment of prophecy.
Did you ever hear of journaling?
Of course Luke wrote some of it while he was with Paul.
“Rome denied that it was scripture in the 4th century”
Ooh. That’s gonna take a [[citation needed]].
“And what, exactly, is your point?”
The point is that Origen’s list differs from the modern canon, and his wasn’t the only one. While again there was substantial overlap but they did differ.
JCB: “Pray for one another” - Jesus.
Scripture reference for that?
And if we are commanded to pray FOR each other, they can do it without our asking because we are not commanded to pray TO each other.
“Very foolish post. From the time of the early Church the intercession of saints have been a common practice”
Well Steel, please post evidence from before 100 BC that demonstrates conclusively that the Church practiced or encouraged believers to pray to saints who had physically died. That first 100 years should adequately cover the traditions being passed along to each new Christian.
We are never taught to pray to those who have gone on before us. The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient
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Furthermore, no saint whether on earth or in Heaven is Omni-present.
Saints in Heaven cannot hear every prayer on earth. Only god has the power to do that.
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Cor 11:2)”
Where is the list of those traditions Paul was referring to...?
“Jerome was concerned that he lacked hebrew originals.”
Jerome wasn’t concerned that he lacked the “Hebrew originals.” He was concerned that the Jews did not consider them canonical, and so did not include them. 1 Maccabees is available in Hebrew, so he said, but he did not include it. There are no new “manuscripts” that suddenly make Judith, for example, canonical scripture, despite it being filled with historical and geographical errors.
This is what I am taking from the arguments here:
me: “Mom, Dad, I have a test in school next week. Please help me with my studying”
parents: “All the answers are in this text book. Study it, and don’t ask anyone to help you study.”
Trying to argue that they are alive (which should be obvious to any believer) makes a weak argument about the bigger issue - why pray to the butler when you have a direct line to the owner of the mansion? I understand that they are asked/expected to "intercede", but what the hey - where does the Bible say that is the case?
“Jerome wasn’t concerned that he lacked the “Hebrew originals.”
Which again is why the list of books coincides with his list of hebrew originals. ;) Also why Luther himself cites the EXACT SAME argument.
I’m sorry, but I’m gonna go with what Jerome and Luther actually said.
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