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According to Scripture (Where is sola scriptura itself taught in the Bible?)
Catholic Answers ^ | Tim Staples

Posted on 06/22/2013 1:01:24 PM PDT by NYer

"If a teaching isn’t explicit in the Bible, then we don’t accept it as doctrine!" That belief, commonly known as sola scriptura, was a central component of all I believed as a Protestant. This bedrock Protestant teaching claims that Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith and morals for Christians. Diving deeper into its meaning to defend my Protestant faith against Catholicism about twenty years ago, I found that there was no uniform understanding of this teaching among Protestant pastors and no book I could read to get a better understanding of it.

What role does tradition play? How explicit does something have to be in Scripture before it can be called doctrine? Does Scripture tell us what is absolutely essential for us to believe as Christians? How can we determine the canon using sola scriptura? All these questions and more pointed to the central question: Where is sola scriptura itself taught in the Bible?

Most Protestants find it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The fact is that this passage (or any other) does not even hint at Scripture being the sole rule of faith. It says that Scripture is inspired and necessary—a rule of faith—but in no way does it teach that Scripture alone is all one needs to determine the truth about faith and morals in the Church. My attempt to defend this bedrock teaching of Protestantism led me to conclude that sola scriptura is unreasonable, unbiblical, and unworkable.

Unreasonable

The Protestant appeal to the sole authority of Scripture to defend sola scriptura is a textbook example of circular reasoning, and it betrays an essential problem with the doctrine itself: It is contrary to reason. One cannot prove the inspiration of Scripture, or any text, from the text itself. The Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, the Qur’an, the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, and other books all claim inspiration, but this does not make them inspired.

Closely related to this is the question of the canon. After all, if the Bible is the sole rule of faith, we first have to know which books are included in the Bible. Many books were believed to be inspired and, therefore, canonical in the early Church. How do we separate the wheat from the chaff? The Protestant must use the principle of sola scriptura to answer the question of the canon. It simply cannot be done.

I recall a conversation with a Protestant friend about this. He said, "The Holy Spirit guided the early Christians and helped them gather the canon of Scripture and declare it to be the inspired word of God, as Jesus said in John 16:13." I thought that that answer was more Catholic than Protestant. John 16:13 does tells us that the Spirit will lead the apostles, and by extension, the Church, into truth. But it has nothing to say about sola scriptura or the nature or number of books in the canon.

The Bible does not and cannot answer questions about its own inspiration or about the canon. Historically, the Church used sacred Tradition outside of Scripture as its criterion for the canon. The early Christians, many of whom disagreed on the issue, needed the Church in council to give an authoritative decree to settle the question. Those are the historical facts.

To put my friend’s argument into perspective, imagine a Catholic making a similar claim to demonstrate that Mary is the Mother of God. "We believe the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and guided the early Christians to declare this truth." Would the Protestant respond with a hearty amen? No. He would be more likely to say, "Show me where it says in the Bible that Mary is the Mother of God!" The same question, of course, applies to Protestants concerning the canon: "Show me where the canon of Scripture is in the Bible!"

Will the Circle Be Unbroken?

The issues of the inspiration and canon of Scripture are the Achilles heel of any intellectual defense of sola scriptura. So weak are the biblical attempts at an answer that often the Protestant response just turns the argument against the Catholic. "How do you know Scripture is inspired? Your reasoning is just as circular. You say the Church is infallible because the inspired Scripture says so, then you say that Scripture is inspired and infallible because the Church says so!"

Not only is this not an answer, but it also misrepresents the Catholic position. Catholics do not claim the Church is infallible because Scripture says so. The Church is infallible because Jesus said so. The Church was established and functioning as the infallible spokesperson for the Lord decades before the New Testament was written.

It is true that we know Scripture to be inspired and canonical only because the Church has told us so. That is historical fact. Catholics reason to inspiration of Scripture through demonstrating first its historical reliability and the truth about Christ and the Church. Then we can reasonably rely upon the testimony of the Church to tell us the text is inspired. This is not circular reasoning. The New Testament is the most accurate and verifiable historical document in all of ancient history, but one cannot deduce from this that it is inspired.

The testimony of the New Testament is backed up by hundreds of works by early Christian and non-Christian writers. We have the first-century testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the Church Fathers—some of whom were contemporaries of the apostles—and highly reliable non-Christian writers such as Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, and others, all testifying to the veracity of the Christ-event in various ways. It is on the basis of the historical evidence that we can say it is a historical fact that Jesus lived, died and was reported to be resurrected from the dead by over 500 eyewitnesses (1 Cor. 15:6). Many of these eyewitnesses went to their deaths testifying to the truth of the Resurrection of Christ (Luke 1:1-4; John 21:18-19; 24-25; Acts 1:1-11).

The historical record also tells us that Jesus Christ established a Church—not a book—to be the foundation of the Christian faith (Matt. 16:15-18; 18:15-18; cf. Eph. 2:20; 3:10, 20-21; 4:11-15; 1 Tim. 3:15; Heb. 13:7, 17). Christ said of his Church, "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

The many books that comprise the Bible never tell us that they are inspired, nor do they answer many other essential questions about their canonicity. Who can or cannot be the human authors of the texts? Who wrote them in the first place? But Scripture does tell us—remarkably clearly—that Jesus established a kingdom on earth, the Church, with a hierarchy and the authority to speak for him (Luke 20:29-32; Matt. 10:40; 28:18-20). If we did not have Scripture, we would still have the Church. But without the Church, there would be no New Testament Scripture. It was members of this kingdom, the Church, who wrote Scripture, preserved its many texts, and eventually canonized it. Scripture alone could not do any of this.

The bottom line is that the truth of the Catholic Church is rooted in history. Jesus Christ is a historical person who gave his authority to his Church to teach, govern, and sanctify in his place. His Church gave us the New Testament with the authority of Christ. Reason rejects sola scriptura as a self-refuting principle.

Unbiblical

There are four problems with the defense of sola scriptura using 2 Timothy 3:16. First, it does not speak of the New Testament at all. The two verses preceding 2 Timothy 3:16 say:

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

This passage does not refer to the New Testament. In fact, none of the New Testament books had been written when Timothy was a child. Claiming this verse as authentication for a book that had not been written yet goes far beyond what the text claims.

Second, 2 Timothy 3:16 does not claim Scripture to be the sole rule of faith for Christians. As a Protestant, I was guilty of seeing more than one sola in Scripture that simply did not exist. The Bible teaches justification by faith, and we Catholics believe it, but we do not believe in justification by faith alone, as Protestants do. Among other reasons, the Bible says that we are "justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:24). There is no sola in 2 Timothy 3:16 either. The passage never claims Scripture to be the sole rule of faith.

James 1:4 illustrates the problem:

And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

If we apply the same principle of exegesis to this text that the Protestant does to 2 Timothy 3:16, then we would have to say that all we need is patience (steadfastness) to be perfected. We don’t need faith, hope, charity, the Church, baptism, or anything else.

Of course, any Christian knows this would be absurd. But James’s emphasis on the central importance of patience is even stronger than Paul’s emphasis on Scripture. The key is to see that there is not a sola in either text. Sola patientia would be just as wrong as sola scriptura.

Third, the Bible teaches that oral Tradition is equal to Scripture. It is silent when it comes to sola scriptura, but it is remarkably clear in teaching that oral Tradition is just as much the word of God as Scripture is. In what most scholars believe was the first book written in the New Testament, Paul said:

And we also thank God . . . that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God. (1 Thess. 2:13)

According to Paul, the spoken words of the apostles were the word of God. In fact, when Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians, he urged Christians there to receive the oral and written Traditions as equally authoritative. This would be expected because both are the word of God:

So, then, brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thess. 2:15)

Finally, 2 Timothy 3:16 is specifically addressed to members of the hierarchy. It is a pastoral epistle, written to a young bishop Paul had ordained. R. J. Foster points out that the phrase "man of God" refers to ministers, not to the average layperson (A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1149). This title was used in the Old Testament to describe those consecrated to the service of God (Deut. 33:1; 1 Sam. 2:27; 1 Kgs. 12:22). Not only does the text not say Scripture sola, but Paul’s exhortation for Timothy to study the word of God is in the context of an exhortation to "preach the word" as a minister of Christ. To use this text to claim that sola scriptura is being taught to the average layperson is—to borrow a phrase from Paul—going far "beyond what is written" (1 Cor. 4:6).

Unworkable

The silence of Scripture on sola scriptura is deafening. But when it comes to the true authority of Scripture and Tradition and to the teaching and governing authority of the Church, the text is clear:

If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. . . . But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matt. 18:15-17)

According to Scripture, the Church is the final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith, morals, and discipline. It is telling that since the Reformation of almost 500 years ago—a Reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal principle—there are now over 33,000 Protestant denominations. In John 10:16, Jesus prophesied there would be "one flock, one shepherd." Reliance on sola scriptura has not been effective in establishing doctrine or authority.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; itisnt; scripture; solascriptura; tradition
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To: BlueDragon; piusv
That's because it's a specious question, and has been answered in sundry ways, many times around here.

Since it has been answered so many times and ways, you won't have any trouble pointing out several places, or even one.

201 posted on 06/23/2013 5:10:10 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: metmom
“...ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer, and when this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again next year, as if nothing had ever been written on the subject”. - Anglican Bishop Horne 1831

Reminds me of the incessant debates that go on in these kinds of threads. It won't matter how many Scriptures we post, some will close their ears to God's truth and ask the same questions next chance they get. Ears only get opened when God opens them.

202 posted on 06/23/2013 5:11:29 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: verga
Got it No assurance of Salvation.

Wrong, because it has nothing to do with the individuals salvation. When someone is saved, they are saved now and forever. That is sealed in heaven by the Holy Spirit.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

203 posted on 06/23/2013 5:40:35 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slave)
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To: BlueDragon
Even if one took the time and effort to pluck apart the strawman constructions, unravel the errors, carefully applying truth where it need rightfully be -- then what? The "attack" begins. Tear down the freeper who dares...or just ignore it all, claiming it's too long of a reply/comment, but run 'round pushing the same specious questions under other noses, instead.

“...ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer, and when this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again next year, as if nothing had ever been written on the subject”. - Anglican Bishop Horne 1831

204 posted on 06/23/2013 5:45:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: NYer; CynicalBear
CB:You still haven’t proven that what was taught “by word of mouth” was different than what was taught in scripture.

NYer:Who ever said it was different? You are truly missing the point here. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

If they're the same, then we don't need the oral tradition.

205 posted on 06/23/2013 5:45:34 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slave)
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To: boatbums
Psalm 1:1-3Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.
206 posted on 06/23/2013 6:00:47 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slave)
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To: BlueDragon

Gosh, it almost sounds like some Catholics would rather throw out two-thirds of the New Testament because Paul wrote them, but have no qualms whatsoever in accepting seven books in the Old Testament that even the Jews rejected as sacred Scripture - books which NEVER claim to be revelation from God. Go figure!


207 posted on 06/23/2013 6:02:26 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Once declared as a “tradition”, from then on it is considered part of this canon. None of those things are essential for saving faith. None of them are essential for making a Christian complete or mature.

I'm still waiting to hear what is lacking in Scripture that makes it not adequate to depend on to live our Christian life.

What about the God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired word is deficient?

Personally, I have no problem if someone wants to splash themselves with holy water - or whatever. Maybe is has some special, extra-Biblical, non-essential meaning to them. If so, great. As long as it does not directly contradict inspired Scripture, obscure the truths God inspired... have at it.

It also gets back to what was said at the beginning of the article that is ....."If a teaching isn’t explicit in the Bible, then we don’t accept it as doctrine!"

Nobody is obligated to believe something that God didn't see fit to have written down for posterity.

208 posted on 06/23/2013 6:14:36 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slave)
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To: vladimir998
1) St. Paul was right for what he was speaking about to whom he was speaking. That in no way negates the reality of Purgatory. Go back and read verse 1 of that passage and you’ll see St. Paul is talking about the glorified body we will receive after death (”For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”). He’s not denying Purgatory. He’s affirming the Resurrection.

2Co_5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

You're going to have to abandon that verse for one of your purgatory proof texts...

While when Christians are absent from the body they are present with the Lord,

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And no, Paul wasn't addressing just those in front of him...Paul was addressing Christians for all time...

Somehow, your religion misses all the revealed mysteries in the scriptures...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul was NOT speaking of a glorified body any one gets after death, because no one gets one UNTIL the last trump of the trumpet...That's why Paul said, 'absent from the body', glorified or otherwise...

Your dead body drops off your soul and is buried in the ground to rot or is burned and spread in the wind...Your soul immediately goes up, or down...

When God decides to blow the trumpet, the bodies OF CHRISTIANS which are in the ground or scattered will be gathered together and become changed, Glorified, and reunite with the souls who belonged to those bodies...So what are your other purgatory proof texts???

209 posted on 06/23/2013 6:16:57 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: piusv
It's not so much a refusal to believe as I feel the evidence against the Catholic Church being a reflection of the church Jesus founded presents an unbridgeable gulf.

I say that dispassionately since as I said earlier I assume the sincerity of the posters (most of them) in their pursuit of God. Some may take my vigorous disagreements with a belief they cherish as a personal affront but it's never been personal to me and I try not to take other’s comments that way.

Civil toward all, respectful of none, so to speak.

“My answer is that the answer to your question is found in the teachings of the Catholic Church”.

I was looking for something a bit more specific but thanks for the link, I'll check it out. Cheers!

210 posted on 06/23/2013 6:25:31 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: NYer; metmom
Limited time to read and respond due moving, but i saw this and so,

First of all, remember that Paul was not one of the twelve apostles; he received the teaching of Christ orally. Hence, everything he passed on was already oral tradition.

No, not "everything:"

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. " (Galatians 1:11-12)

Secondly, "Tradition" does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change...

That is merely an assertion, and means that the what the apostles passed on orally through their preaching is what Catholicism, and what Roman Catholic (most precisely in disputations with EO interpretation of Tradition) channels into doctrine from this amorphous source call oral tradition, and even make it equal with Scripture. And includes things foreign to Scripture as praying to the departed, which effectively making the church the supreme authority. But as abundantly testified to, Scripture is the supreme transcendent material source by which truth claims are judged.

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Church. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16).

Invoking Luke 10:16 is an example of the wresting of Scripture which RCs must often engage in to support a extraBiblical tradition, for the "you" of Luke 10:16 originally applied to far more than the apostles, and by extension to all disciples of Christ, , and the message refers to the basic gospel message of Scripture being preached, not a mysterious archaic oral tradition. Preaching the gospel of Scripture by the whole church is called "preaching the Word." (Acts 8:4)

Nor was the power to bind and loose or remit sins originally given only to the apostles, or only those they ordained.

While some of what is in Scripture was first oral, or based on it, Scripture is only the class of revelation that is wholly assuredly infallibly and `manifestly inspired of God, and thus the supreme judge of all truth claims and claimants. While there will be differing opinions under SS or sola ecclesia, truth is established by overcoming evil with good, deception with truth that is manifest to be so by conformity with what has been written in word and in power. As this is how the church began, not by reliance upon the sword of men or promised perpetual infallibility via formal descent. p>

While there is additional revelation outside Scripture, including things not lawful to utter, (2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 10:4) yet as Scripture is the assured word of God, thus all truth claims are subject to it, a supreme position Rome arrogates to herself based on an erroneous basis of how truth is established and preserved.

The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13).

While God's holy apostles and prophets were the foundation, (Eph. 2:20) - which we know by the Scriptures - and that God's Spirit will be with His church and lead them into all truth, the issue is what is extrapolated out of this, for such texts do not translate into preservation and proclamation of truth by a perpetuated assuredly infallible Roman magisterium, so that whatever the church ever speaks universally on faith and morals is infallible.

And the argument that being the steward of Divine revelation and inheritor of promise of God's presence and preservation equates to assured infallibility in faith and morals, or is necessary for preservation and proclamation of truth, is contrary to Scripture.

211 posted on 06/23/2013 6:27:46 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Iscool

No, Iscool. I was right all along. Purgatory exists.

By the way, the passage in question is entitled “Awaiting the New Body” in the NIV. So, apparently, once again, not only are you in disagreement with other Protestants, but we see that sola scriptura doesn’t work. You Protestant anti-Catholics can’t get much of anything right.


212 posted on 06/23/2013 6:28:42 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Biggirl
Even Pope Francis is preaching based on the Bible.

So it may be claimed, but that is not his supreme authority, not is warrant from it determinative of doctrine, while he seems somewhat loose in his theology, and some are alarmed at his off the cuff remarks. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3023264/posts

213 posted on 06/23/2013 6:32:54 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Salvation
Christ did found the Catholic Church on himself. But he knew he was going to ascend to the Father, so he breathed the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and gave them the ability to forgive sins. And then he founded his Church on Peter, the Rock.

Would you kindly show us Peter's church in the scriptures???

214 posted on 06/23/2013 6:38:49 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: piusv; NYer
Moreover, they are either unable or prefer not to answer the question: "Who decided which books should be in the Canon of Scripture ... and ... by what authority did they make that determination?" Still crickets.

No crickets, just answers that have not been accepted yet. Here is a good explanation if you care to know it: The Formation of the Canon of the New Testament

215 posted on 06/23/2013 6:38:54 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Iscool

It’s there and you know it. The Apostles and early Christians would attend synagogue and then meet in homes. Acts and St. Paul.

Read them — you just might find the truth!


216 posted on 06/23/2013 6:48:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: piusv
I'm not going to go digging through thousands of threads, some of them running into thousands of posts themselves to go find the answers.

Some portions of what should be wider answer have appeared on this thread. Did you miss those?

Other, wider explanatory "answers" have and do address the question...but do not as they cannot, fully set aside "tradition". Yet with the NT, those works came to be all but self-selecting, in that most all of them enjoyed wide circulation and acceptance from quite early on.

Here's the deal;
What do we see now but NT canon restricted to those sources actually Apostolic? One can ask "what about about Luke, and the book of Acts?" but Luke obviously was well entrenched within the community itself (he received first person testimony from many) and as for the Gospel of Luke itself, Paul in one of his Epistles cites a passage from Luke right as he is also citing and referring to "scripture". Nowhere does Paul attempt to refute or correct the Gospel of Luke that I am aware of. No one else successfully did either...right?

What's left BUT that which is in actuality from Apostles themselves, or those closely with them from the beginnings? That is the "self-selective" aspect.

I've seen other writings attributed to Peter, and read through them, wondering why they lacked in power, before discovering those most likely were not from the Apostle Peter, but were merely presented as being so. There WAS a bit of that sort of thing going on from very close to the beginnings of the church, but were fairly well weeded out before later, "formal" church councils discussed issue of canon, though I do admit it is not a story without some complexity, due much to pseudographical works trying to pass themselves off as 'Apostolic'. along with some NT "apocrypha' which though possibly helpful in some respects, was not fully accepted as being on the same level of inspiration, much less directly Apostolic, thus authoritative. Reading those today, one need be but familiar with that which is NT canon to see the differences. Those same "differences" of course existed in comparison of texts-to-texts then, as they still do.

Here, try this The Formation of the New Testament Canon Steven Voorwinde, Professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological College, Australia

His analysis beats the pants off of most argument seeming designed to use the history of formation of NT canon as leverage towards declaration that even now, in this day and age, the only "authority" possible be that of Rome's self-proclaimed own.

Voorwinde doesn't come across as being polemical (as is my own above 'editorial comment').

Voorwinde arrives where he does through scholarship, providing footnote and documentation for his work as he goes along, with his own scholarly presentation much refuting where some seem to be trying to push Romanist positional argument, rather by default than by design.

That said...this single sample of 'source' (the link provided) along with other documentation, much of them Voorwinde lists as footnote, have been quoted from, linked to, discussed (dismissed out-of-hand by many a [Roman] Catholic I might add) again and again. It get's old.

The trail of bread crumbs doesn't much lead to Rome, anyway. Some of the various "trails" meander through, in regard to some Ante-Nicene notables(?) but the greater balance of such persons and 'source' of written record does not. Nor were the various churches of those days subject to Rome in any particular fashion. The papacy as we know it today...had not yet 'developed', etc.

217 posted on 06/23/2013 6:56:29 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: boatbums

Noticed that, did you? That figures, since you're such a little meanie. hehhehh...

Interesting that you would link to Warfield, as I linked to Voorwinde. There we go again, the organic, accidentally synchronized tag-team. High five, babe.

218 posted on 06/23/2013 7:04:24 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: NYer
Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2).

No, Paul did not say that at all...Paul never said anything close to that...You're making it up...

2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul did not say, AND, traditions...Paul did not instruct anyone that they had to follow scripture AND tradition...

Paul said OR...So to follow the Catholic fallacy but to be honest about it we are instructed to follow Catholic oral Tradition OR the written Tradition which is scripture...

If we are told to stand fast for one OR the other, then either one is acceptable...Either we would be led in one direction with the oral tradition and a different direction if we stand with the written tradition...

And of course Paul was not teaching that when he said pick one OR the other...That's because they are both the same...

One person read what became the tradition...Another heard what was read and passed it on word for word, ergo, oral and written tradition...

219 posted on 06/23/2013 7:08:40 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer
According to Scripture (Where is sola scriptura itself taught in the Bible?)

 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


220 posted on 06/23/2013 7:17:09 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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