Posted on 05/12/2013 5:55:26 PM PDT by narses
Full Question
Until recently, I always thought Catholics worshiped on the Sabbath, and that the early Church moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true? Answer
This is a common misunderstanding. Catholics do not worship on the Sabbath, which according to Jewish law is the last day of the week (Saturday), when God rested from all the work he had done in creation (Gen. 2:2-3). Catholics worship on the Lord’s Day, the first day of the week (Sunday, the eighth day); the day when God said "Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3); the day when Christ rose from the dead; the day when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles (Day of Pentecost). The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: "The Church celebrates the day of Christ’s Resurrection on the ‘eighth day,’ Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord’s Day" (CCC 2191).
The early Church did not move the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Instead "The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday, which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ" (CCC 2190). Sunday is the day Catholics are bound to keep, not Saturday.
We see evidence of this in Scripture:
On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight (Acts 20:7). On the first day of the week each of you should set aside and save whatever one can afford, so that collections will not be going on when I come (1 Cor. 16:2). Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath (Col. 2:16). The Catechism also says:
By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of Christ’s Resurrection, the Church celebrates the Paschal mystery every seventh day, which day is appropriately called the Lord’s Day or Sunday. The day of Christ’s Resurrection is both the first day of the week, the memorial of the first day of creation, and the "eighth day," on which Christ after his "rest" on the great Sabbath inaugurates the "day that the Lord has made," the "day that knows no evening." (CCC 1166)
Other CCC references to the Lord’s Day: 349, 2174, 2175, 2191
Answered by: Peggy Frye
>> “Yet the Gospels, which were being discussed, were written in Kione GREEK” <<
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No, they were teranslated into Greek, after they were translated into Aramaic, which was after they were written in Hebrew, the languiage of Yehova and Yeshua.
My oh my! What do we have here!
http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom
Scroll down to 30CE and look at the date! full moon! 30 (CE) April 6 8 p.m. Thu. or the beginning of Friday by Jewish calenders.
***No, they were teranslated into Greek, after they were translated into Aramaic,****
Matthew may have written his in Hebrew, but why would Mark, Luke, and John and st Paul write theirs in Aramaic? I doubt many in Greece and Asia could read Aramaic. Even St Paul wrote to the Galatians in large letters. I doubt they would read Aramaic.
>> “but why would Mark, Luke, and John and st Paul write theirs in Aramaic?” <<
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Are you trying to look stupid?
They wrote in Hebrew, and Aramaic translations came later. The Greek translations were last, and done very poorly. There are numerous translational nonsequiturs in the Greek, proving that they were done from earlier Aramaic translations rather than by the original authors.
By AD 30, Yeshua was long gone.
***By AD 30, Yeshua was long gone.***
And like so many, if you don’t like the date, just find one that suits your purpose.
And on the road to Emmaus the travelers still said “This is the third day.” It was not a Sabbath as they were traveling. So get used to it. None of the REPUTABLE theologians follow your fringe beliefs.
***The Greek translations were last, and done very poorly. ***
So, if the Greek translations were done very poorly, how do you know the verses you try to hold to IN GREEK are translated correctly?
And why do you not tell everyone which Bible is translated correctly to support your perverted beliefs?
Oh my, sounds like I am talking to a mormon, even though you aren’t, unless you are Stangite.
>> “So, if the Greek translations were done very poorly, how do you know the verses you try to hold to IN GREEK are translated correctly?” <<
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They are not translated correctly; they are translated clumsily, awkwardly, and ignorantly.
There are no reputable theologians.
Theologians all have an axe to grind; that is why they’re theologians rather than loving teachers.
Maybe you really don't understand after all....and if so, I apologize for being so hard on you.
The Hebrew day precedes the Roman/Modern day by 6 hours. The Hebrew day, of course beginning at sunset and the Roman day beginning at midnight. So.....when the Naval observatory mentions that the full moon for 30 A.D. is on Thursday....that means the full moon for the Hebrew 15th of Nisan (Feast of Unleavened), which corresponds to the 6th of April..... actually began the previous evening.....the 5th of April by 6 hours (approximate time of sunset). Please see my calendar for verification of this fact:
The 6th of April, of course the date of the full moon and now verified by the Naval Observatory.....is also the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. It follows the Passover which as you can readily see (and now verified by the Navy) is on the 14th of Nisan.....or the 5th of April.
Like I said..........I really am sorry this has been such a difficult concept for you....but now you (and all the lurkers) can see that I've been correct from the get go.
Now please follow me as I'm going to go slow...........
Yeshua was crucified and died on Passover, the 14th of Nisan, 30 A.D. [Leviticus 23:5]. It was a Wednesday, April 5th, but had begun the previous sunset (April 4th) which was on Tuesday. He was entombed right before sunset which led into the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the 15th of Nisan [Leviticus 23:6] and was still April 5th until midnight when it then became Thursday, April 6th, 30 A.D. This has now been verified by your Naval Observatory link.
***There are no reputable theologians.***
So why should anyone believe anything you or Diego1618 have to say? Are you reputable? Can you prove it?
***The Hebrew day precedes the Roman/Modern day by 6 hours.***
Well of course it does. that makes April 6, 8 P.M. Thursday the equivalent of start of the Hebrew Friday as their day began at sundown. So to the Hebrew it would be Nisan 14 at 8PM, the beginning of their day count. The Roman Thursday would be ending and the Hebrew friday had already started.
Friday was April 7 by Roman count, and Nisan 14 by Hebrew count.
Friday crucified and buried. Saturday Sabbath and Passover, Sunday resurection, “This is the third day”..
They were traveling so it was NOT a Sabbath day.
I refuse to believe you could really be this dense. But, I will play along for the benefit of lurkers who are still not sure.
If April 6th, Thursday..... was the full moon.... when did the day begin according to the Naval Observatory? At 12:01 A.M.....correct? There was a full moon at midnight immediately after Wednesday, April the 5th had concluded. The Hebrew months are 29 or 30 days because the moon cycle is about 29.5 days from new moon to new moon. Consequently....the full moon in any Hebrew month rises after sundown of the 14th as the day turns into the 15th. The major Feasts (except Pentecost & Trumpets) begin on the 15th.
The naval observatory explains that the full moon rose on the 6th of April which as the calendar shows is the 15th of Nisan. That day....the Hebrew 15th began on the sundown of April 5 and continued to be April 5 until midnight. When April 6th started.....Nisan 15 had already been in effect for a few hours since sundown.
Yeshua was not crucified on the Feast [II Chronicles 35:1][Matthew 26:5]. He was put on the stake, died and was entombed all on the 14th which your own link shows was Wednesday.....the day before the full moon of the Feast, Thursday.
Friday was April 7 by Roman count, and Nisan 14 by Hebrew count.
May I ask a silly question. If the Naval Observatory says that the full moon rose on the 6th of April and it was a Thursday.....how does this magically become Friday in your mind? If they are correct (which is a good assumption) then the day before the full moon would be a Wednesday....not a Friday. The Passover always occurs the day before the Full moon.....not the day after. This means that Passover, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. (according to your own link) occurred on Wednesday. The full moon occurs on the Feast....the 15th. That, according to the Naval Observatory was the 6th of April 30 A.D. and it began one second after Wednesday the 5th of April ended.
Hebrew/Modern calendar showing April 6th to be the same day as Nisan 15.......the Feast, 30 A.D.
At the time of the Feast Joseph and Nicodemus had just entombed Yeshua as the sun went down [John 19:14; 19:31; 19:41-42].
Ruy, you have been doing a great job but i am afraid you are dealing eithr with a cultist who’s hatred for the Catholic Church has blinded him to Biblical truth or someone who is so ignorant of the Scriptures, he can’t understand what you are saying. In either case, we need to pray for his soul.
he admits in post #276 that Jesus rose on the third day. ok, you would think if everyone agrees on that point, we can then move forward to find truth.
when is “the third day” in the Scriptures? well, according to Jesus in Luke 13:31-33, the third day is the day after tomorrow. when is tomorrow? tomorrow is the day after today. the way Jesus counts days in Luke 13 is entirely consistent with the rest of the Scriptures, Exodus 19:10-11 and Acts 10:1-30 are further confirmation of how days are counted. the Jews to this day still count days the same way, so a male baby born on a Wednesday must be circumcised by the 8th day, which means by sundown the following Wednesday ( the day of birth counting as day one )
so our friend puts forth his unique theory of a wednesday death and a 7th day sabbath rising from the dead. does this theory fit with Jesus rising on the third day? Let’s look:
wednesday - day one
thursday - tomorrow = day two
friday - day after tomorrow = third day
so if we count days the way Jesus did in Luke 13, a wednesday crucifixion would mean He rose from the dead on friday, since that is the third day from wednesday. utterly impossible and Luke 24 proves it is impossible.
Luke 24 occurs on Sunday, the first day of the week. v1 says “ but on the first day of the week “. this of course follows Luke 23:56, which tells us the women rested on the 7th day sabbath, according to the commandment.
Further in Luke 24, v13 tells us the conversation on he road to Emmaus happened “that very day”, i.e. it is still the first day of the week. Luke 24:21 is the key verse in all of the Bible for telling us exactly what day Jesus died andon which day He rose, since it says “ and besides all this, it is now the THIRD DAY since these things happened”. of course, the “these things” refers to v20 where they are discussing His crucifixion.
here is where logic has to be used - if the first day of he week is the third day since the crucifixion occurred, and Jesus was to rise ON THE THIRD DAY, Jesus had to have risen from the dead ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. ( the day Christians have taught and believed for 2,000 years )
But on what day did He die? Following the Biblical rule of how to count days, we KNOW He died on Friday:
Friday - day one
Saturday - tomorrow - day two
Sunday - day after tomorrow - the third day
well, well, well, what do you know? historical Christianity has been right all along. the Universal Faith spread across the known world from the Apostles taught that Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday, the third day. and yes, this Faith also teaches that the 7th day Sabbath observance ended at the cross and the rest for the Christian is now resting “ in Christ” and His sacrificial death which reconciles us to the Father.
Ruy, Luke 24 is also confirmation that you are quite correct that the phrase “ first of the sabbaths” is another way of saying the first day of the week ( as every Greek scholar would acknowledge ) Luke 24 occurs the day after the 7th day Sabbath, the women are no longer resting and the two disciples would not be on the road to Emmaus if it were still the Sabbath.
btw - i loved #276 and the fanciful story of the disciples fleeing Jerusalem for fear the Roman soldiders were after them, that was such fiction it was Dan Brown worthy. such nonsense, but those that attack the Christian Faith are forced into fanciful theories never heard of for 2,000 years!
***May I ask a silly question. If the Naval Observatory says that the full moon rose on the 6th of April and it was a Thursday****
No problem. After about 1500 years of keeping a passover I believe they knew the moon was at it’s fullest and that happened between 8PM and 10 PM that evening of the Roman Thursday, but by Jewish reconing it was the first hours of Nisan 14, or Friday while still dark.
I don't believe I have ever encountered anyone who purposely skews the scriptures to fit their traditions as much as you do.
Use your head. If the full moon occurs on a Thursday (as you admit....and the Naval Observatory confirms) then the Passover must be the previous day. Most folks would agree that the previous day to Thursday is Wednesday and why you continue to say Passover would then be on Friday totally escapes me. The full moon begins on the conjunction of the 14th and the 15th. According to the Naval Observatory this would be Wednesday Night/Thursday Morning....April 5th/April 6th.
Just answer one question. Are you aware that the Feast of Unleavened Bread (the 15th) takes place on the full moon of Nisan and follows the Passover (the 14th), the previous day?
I'll await your answer....and until we settle this question........ I'll disregard anything else you have to say. This is getting too silly.
In fact....I'll ask an open question. Is anyone else aware that the Feast of Unleavened Bread always occurs on a full moon and follows the Passover? I'm curious now if this is not common knowledge since "Ruy" is so adamant about Passover being the next day, Friday.
He says that the moon was its fullest between 8:00 P.M. and 10:00 P.M. on the close of Thursday, April 6th, 30 A.D. Stop and analyze this silliness. If the full moon was on the 6th of April it had to be the 15th of Nisan. That day has been shown to be Thursday....and Yeshua had already been entombed before sundown the previous night! He died on the 14th.....not the 16th! Where in scripture does it say that the Passover comes the day after the Feast? And where in scripture does it say the Feast is not on the full moon of the 15th?
I'll await your answer to my question in paragraph 3.
Let me ask you a question.
“This is the third day”, said while traveling from Jerusalem.
What was yesterday? The second day, Sabbath.
What was the day before that? The first day. Friday
No first day, skip a day, then second day and third day.
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