Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
A what???
You know, a castaway as in,
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then : The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Romans 11:20 Well : because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith : be not highminded, but fear.
Romans 11:20 Thou standest by faith : be not highminded, but fear. We see here that he who standeth by faith may fall from it ; and therefore must live in fear, and not in the vain presumption and security of modern sectaries.
Romans 11:21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God : towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity ; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Ignore His Word to suit your own agenda and further your faith in your Self at your own peril.
"For the word of God is ALIVE and ACTIVE. Sharper than any double-edged sword, IT penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; IT judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
Here is the original of what Luther said and it goes way beyond just sin boldly,it names grave sins as nothing to be concerned with
From Luther
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt
Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521
How anyone can justify being saved and committing murder and adultery is beyond me,there is no appropriate context in which to even say such things
Depends on what Paul meant when he was talking about tradition doesn’t it? Let’s first look at how Jesus viewed tradition as opposed to the written word.
Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
There are others but with that in mind do you think the apostles would have begun an “oral tradition” instead of writing things down so there would be a record that no one could dispute? After all, Paul gave the commendation to the Bereans that they “searched the scriptures daily to see if these things be true”.
Beliefs of the RCC today are no where found in scripture. The assumption of Mary would be one. Praying to Mary and saints is simply a supposition by the RCC extrapolated from verses clearly not intended to mean what the RCC would have you think.
Now to the passage you refer.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Have you ever had anyone tell you what a verse says without you reading it? Whether you heard it by word or read it makes no difference. It certainly doesn’t say that what he said has never been written. In fact, if we go back to Paul’s commendation of the Bereans it would be wise to double check what you heard with scripture.
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
God will take away our sins. Not us. Imagine that.
http://bible.cc/romans/11-19.htm
http://bible.cc/romans/11-21.htm
http://bible.cc/romans/11-21.htm
http://bible.cc/romans/11-22.htm
What abomination of a translation did you take those verses from that adds to Scripture? And just who added that second sentence in Romans 11:20 that you quote as being in Scripture that isn't. This one... We see here that he who standeth by faith may fall from it ; and therefore must live in fear, and not in the vain presumption and security of modern sectaries.
It's not in the Douay-Rheims Bible which is posted here.
http://drb.scripturetext.com/romans/11.htm
19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear. 21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Let me phrase that with the correct interpretation of the Greek word used. “tell the assembly” there must be and “assembly”. If I meet with a group of Christians on a regular basis that is exactly what he was talking about. That is an assembly. That is the local assembly that needs to shun that person if he doesn’t listen. No where in that statement was it even inferred that there should be a “one world” overseer of that assembly other than Christ and the local Elder within that “assembly”.
>>Would Jesus command two Christians in disagreement to take their dispute to "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting."<<
Yes He would and that’s exactly what He was saying.
>>Which assembly?<<
The assembly of those believers he regularly met with.
>>Clearly, this Church must be unified,<<
It spiritually is under Christ who is the High Priest.
>>because Jesus tells us to take our disputes to "the" church, not "a" church.<<
check out Revelation or any one of the books Paul wrote. The church (assembly) are Corinth, the church (assembly) in Rome, the church (assembly) Philippi, and then each of the churches referenced in Revelation. Each one says the church. >>All of this follows necessarily from Christ's simple command. Otherwise, His command would be empty, which is an impossibility<<
Stop using carnal knowledge and read scripture.
Let me phrase that with the correct interpretation of the Greek word used. “tell the assembly” there must be and “assembly”. If I meet with a group of Christians on a regular basis that is exactly what he was talking about. That is an assembly. That is the local assembly that needs to shun that person if he doesn’t listen. No where in that statement was it even inferred that there should be a “one world” overseer of that assembly other than Christ and the local Elder within that “assembly”.
>>Would Jesus command two Christians in disagreement to take their dispute to "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting."<<
Yes He would and that’s exactly what He was saying.
>>Which assembly?<<
The assembly of those believers he regularly met with.
>>Clearly, this Church must be unified,<<
It spiritually is under Christ who is the High Priest.
>>because Jesus tells us to take our disputes to "the" church, not "a" church.<<
check out Revelation or any one of the books Paul wrote. The church (assembly) are Corinth, the church (assembly) in Rome, the church (assembly) Philippi, and then each of the churches referenced in Revelation. Each one says the church. >>All of this follows necessarily from Christ's simple command. Otherwise, His command would be empty, which is an impossibility<<
Stop using carnal knowledge and read scripture.
LOL Huh?
ROFL!!!!
Lets look how God pines for us and how we are given free will to freely accept or reject His love...
“I removed his shoulder from the burden; His hands were freed from the baskets. You called in trouble, and I delivered you; I answered you in the secret place of thunder; I tested you at the waters of Meribah. “Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you! O Israel, if you will listen to Me! There shall be no foreign god among you; Nor shall you worship any foreign god. I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt; Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it. “But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels. “Oh, that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways! I would soon subdue their enemies, And turn My hand against their adversaries. The haters of the Lord would pretend submission to Him, But their fate would endure forever. Ps 81:5-15
Does this one sound like Christ is pining for us?.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; Matthew 23:37-38
Or from Paul.. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting. Romans 1:20-28
You can see that in each of these examples how God greatly wants all men be saved, But men turn away from God, and it is out of love, He allows them to continue to perdition. A life without God is what they want, then that is what they get. Love was not forced
>>Romans 11:20 Well : because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith : be not highminded, but fear.<<
Romans 8:31-39 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There is no sin greater or stronger than God and His love for His children and His ability to forgive them and their sin.
How anyone can justify being saved and committing murder and adultery is beyond me,there is no appropriate context in which to even say such things
Nobody does. Only an unregenerate mind would come to those conclusions.
Luther isn't saying that it's OK to do those things, nor is he advocating that anyone go out and do those things.
Anyone who is interpreting his comments to mean that is not being intellectually honest.
A person who is saved has the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in them and has the mind of Christ. It is inconceivable that a genuine believer would ever think that way and it's virtually certain that someone who does think that way is not genuinely saved.
The point Luther is making is that God is greater than our sin and even our propensity to commit it.
Do Catholics understand hyperbole or does Luther just push them over the edge that easily?
There ya go! Really stupid to put your trust in those who make comments like that or who kill people because they are considered heretics. Right?
Probably will when hell freezes over.
Why don’t you go read that post again and point out to me where I said He “didn’t” pine for us. I distinctly remember that I used the words “Oh He does more than just pine for us.” Maybe you were so intent on trying to discredit what I said that you read something that wasn’t there?
If someone doesn't believe God and take Him at His word, IOW that He is going to deliver on His promises, that person does not have faith.
CB: There ya go! Really stupid to put your trust in those who make comments like that or who kill people because they are considered heretics. Right?
You mean like in the Inquisition?
Please don’t ping me again. I will return the favor.
1,891 posted on Friday, December 21, 2012 12:38:42 by CynicalBear
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Yes, since it's impossible for some folks to keep their word, by all means let's do highlight some of what what they left out:
Romans 11:20 Thou standest by faith : be not highminded, but fear. We see here that he who standeth by faith may fall from it ; and therefore must live in fear, and not in the vain presumption and security of modern sectaries.
Romans 11:21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God : towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity ; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
As always, the trash talking sort of folks try to ignore the portions of Scripture that don't fit their personal heresy and agenda.
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