Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
Red herring......
You're right ,dear sister, it's not complicated as long as we are contrite in knowing our offenses against God and repent.
It's not complicated, but it takes humility to admit we are wrong. That can be difficult for us to admit sometimes. I know I have my struggles , but really try and persevere and ask for Grace to overcome myself
Than explain why Luther wrote such things and how He is born again?
I have many files on what Luther said that will make you head spin.I don't think you want to go there.
I have seen cases on the news where adoption was broken and child was sent back because of bad behavior.
Do you understand a father's heart?
Being that I am a father of 2 girls, 21 and 26, I can assure you that my heart never stops being concerned
Really? When you don't believe Jesus, The Word of God isn't the FINAL authority? That's fork tongued thinking because you can't separate them.
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways". James 1:8
I don't limit Christianity to a book religion
What's a book religion? God has nothing to do with religion - HE is all about relationship! And you don't have the authority to make that call about Christianity as a catholic. Nothing like showing how catholics limit the Words of the ALMIGHTY GOD to call it a 'Book'. Jesus is The Word made flesh. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". Roman 10:9 Catholics say Jesus is a book and not Lord over them. Without Jesus there is no salvation.
because The Holy Spirit goes far beyond what can ever be encompassed in a book.
The Holy Spirit doesn't go anywhere where God isn't - it is HIS SPIRIT - the 3 in One is connected! And the Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus who died for all of us to go directly to The Father - one big circle with NO man involved! That's His Will, His Way and not for you to decide but believe it on faith. Knowing 'God's Word is true and every man a liar'. Man made teaching is a lie!
And what 'book' do you know that has the power to do this? Tell me!
"For the WORD of God is LIVING and ACTIVE. Sharper than any double-edged sword, IT penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; IT judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12
There are people who abide in Christ who are deaf,dumb, mentally impaired without the ability to read or comprehend a Bible.
First of all, it is not 'a' bible - GOD'S WORD it is THE BIBLE. The Bible Truth! And The Holy Spirit is their teacher and without It they are not 'in Christ' for God's Word is spiritually discerned.
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14
Perhaps some depth of thought should help you to realize this?
I just rebuked your thoughts with the Word of God! Catholics, Mormons, Muslims have no truth so they can't be any depth in their thoughts but only depth in deception and someday I hope they realize it.
The WORD of GOD alone is The Final Authority.
Thanks: these reflect the Catholic teaching that salvation begins with faith.
For God so loved the world He sent a book.
That is what you are saying here.
The Word is Jesus.
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus is the Word.
The point is not that a Protestant cannot be saved — of course he can,— but that the only way for him to be saved is through sanctification in the Catholic Church and abandonment of all heresy, if not formally, then in their works.
You claimed it as you tell us you follow Rome/RCC - and post their teachings as proof.
I would like you stop posting me ,like I asked you before.
I'm sure there are lots of things you would like, right? God wants ALL to be saved and sent His Son, the living Word of God, JESUS, to die for ALL to be saved and ALL will not be saved because man made teachings have deceived those He died for. So, any posting that nullifies His Word - like the catechism or Rome/RCC interpretation of God's Word, I will counteract it with Truth/God's Word lest anyone else blindly chooses to fall into the pit of deception.
And this is nothing new - so if you can't take the heat, scroll on by or leave (the kitchen). God gave you/us all free will to choose - and some choose man/death and some choose JESUS/LIFE.
“But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.” Matthew 17:20
Why not post what is your FINAL Authority - what the popettes through the years have declared what 'man's truth' is? Not so sure of it? Back and forth on it? Not sure who to believe? Being double minded? A little here and a little there?
[27] Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed. [28] They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent. (John 6)Observe first that verse 27 already establishes that certain work does not perish but endures onto salvation. Then, Christ tells unbelievers: start your salvation by believing. There are many verses that say so, not just this one. Lastly, Christ explains that faith is itself work. That is consistent with the manner in which He is going to judge us, by our works (Matthew 25:31-46). All this is Catholic teaching, and none teaches that the initial impetus of conversion is all the faith one needs to be saved. That good works must accompany faith is, after all, taught directly in James 2:17-26. However, these verses alone do not establish fake Protestant soteriology even if read in isolation.
Yes, all the credit is to Christ’s grace by which alone we are saved. Not by faith alone but by grace alone.
Yes, absolutely we choose to believe or not, and after we so chosen we further choose to do the good works or not. If we didn’t all the admonitions to do good work would make no sense, and they are plentiful in the Gospels, just google “good works”. If we did, we gradually become a new creation.
Works of the law, or works done to boast, or for pay obviously do nothing toward our salvation. This is well established in Galatians, and in Romans. We are saved by faith, but not by faith alone, and not by the works of the law (Romans 3:28).
I am tired of explaining the same things to you several times already.
Show me where I said that before you go off and preach to me with God's Word that is the Final Authority! It is Catholics who are saying that! KEEP IT HONEST!
You don’t need to shout.
Meaning they cannot be saved as Protestants, meaning all those statements about Prots now being born again and part of the body of Christ, are misleading, to say the least, which awaits “clarification” by such as annalex.
And whom it appears belongs to the class of those who effectively sanctions the corporeal punishment (and death) by the Inquisition in the past as sanctioned by the church against merely theological opponents, as part of her best effort to ensure their salvation.
And the claim that she no longer would sanction this is unconvincing, based upon past teaching and adaptations.
You are correct that you are part of a minority. I hope.
Sorry but the Church has not always understood adoption to be united with the love of Christ. The early fathers taught it to be much more than a union. They believe the indwelling of the Spirit made you part of God's family. What more, if you read my reference to New Advent, they confirm this to be true and explain how this view of the Church has evolved to the eastern view. But what's more, that view so contorts the whole meaning of adoption that it would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. To think that God the Father willfully adopted us and made us joint hiers with His holy and righteous Son, and our response to this is, "Yeah, but we can leave whenever we want." is, IMO to treat God with contempt.
I realize Catholics would like very much to believe their views to be consistent for 2,000 years. However, if one would simply read New Advent, the Catholic encyclopeida, they'll find that there are many instances from which Catholic doctrine has "evolved" from the early Church fathers. This isn't HarleyD saying so. They say so. When I saw your prayer, I was a bit surprise because your prayer is NOT using adoption as "a union" but rather as being sons and joint hiers. I'm surprised that if you believe as the Church today does that it's simply a "union" why you didn't catch this eggregous error. Instead you lauded the prayer.
This, btw, is one of my pet peeves with Catholics. I don't mind Catholics telling me what they believe now. But please don't tell me this is what the Church has always believe. It is simply not true and even the Catholic website ADMITS it.
Here are a couple of references to the early fathers writings on adoption.
as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption
the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham.
granting to men largely and without grudging, by means of adoption, to know God the Father, and to love Him with the whole heart, and to follow His word unswervingly, while they abstain not only from evil deeds, but even from the desire after them. But He has also increased the feeling of reverence; for sons should have more veneration than slaves, and greater love for their father.
For when he had said that power was given to them from Him Who is by Nature Son, to become sons of God, and had hereby first introduced that which is of adoption and grace, without peril does he |106 afterwards add were begotten of God; that he might shew the greatness of the grace which was conferred on them, gathering as it were into kinness of nature that which was alien from God the Father and raising up the bond to the nobility of its Lord, by means of His warm love to it.
For the one had the spirit of bondage to fear, the other the spirit of adoption unto liberty, whereby we cry Abba, Father.
Now THAT sounds like a mighty good prayer!
Teach us HOW to pray...
Not WHAT to pray...
I DO FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T READ or REFUSE TO DO SO!
Go preach to the Catholics if 'you care enough for them' as you did me!
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