Atonement from the Ship in Purgatory by Joseph Anton Koch, c. 1825
Posted on 10/26/2012 2:28:43 PM PDT by NYer
In Catholic theology, Purgatory is a state (or a process, not necessarily a place) to which one’s soul travels if one has died in a state of grace, but nevertheless retains unremitted venial sins and certain ingrained bad habits and dispositions.
That is, Purgatory is a state for the redeemed who are not yet perfected. It is not a halfway house between Heaven and Hell. In Purgatory, you willingly undergo the quality and quantity of pain and suffering that is uniquely prepared for you so that you may enter Heaven unblemished.
But the dead in Purgatory do not go through this alone. Those of us who are living may provide assistance to them by offering prayers, alms, Masses, indulgences, etc. without, apparently, undermining the point of Purgatory.
Some Protestants, even those who are Purgatory-friendly, have raised an objection to this account. They argue that, if undergoing the pains of Purgatory is necessary for a soul’s purification, then wouldn’t the assistance of the living impair that purification?
That is, if I fast and pray for the poor souls in Purgatory so that they may receive some relief from their suffering, how is that helping their purification if the process requires a particular amount of agony?
The mistake the critic is making is that he is thinking of Purgatory in terms of distributive justice, that the assistance of the living is a rival to the performance of the deceased as if the entire enterprise were a zero-sum game.
He is, of course, not entirely to blame, since the Church and its theologians sometimes use the juridical language of satisfaction and debt to describe Purgatory, its punishments, and the role that the living play in diminishing those punishments.
Nevertheless, as a technical matter, the Church’s understanding of the justice exacted in Purgatory has always been teleological. “Justice,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, “is so-called inasmuch as it implies a certain rectitude of order in the interior disposition of a man, in so far as what is highest in man is subject to God, and the inferior powers of the soul are subject to the superior.”
Atonement from the Ship in Purgatory by Joseph Anton Koch, c. 1825
This is why two Church councils – Orange and Trent – employ the metaphor of the vine and the branches (John 15:1-17) in order to express the relationship between the members of Christ’s body, both living and dead, as they assist each other on the journey to Paradise. The Council of Trent affirms:
For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches, continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace….
Perhaps a concrete example will help. Peter is a child growing up in the midst of a broken home. As a consequence, he develops vices that lead him to a life of crime and debauchery.
Suppose as a young adult he undergoes a conversion experience, though he finds it difficult to change his old habits. He often finds himself tempted to return to his former life, though he knows that it will destroy him.
Fed up with this internal struggle, he pursues a cloistered life of spiritual discipline that includes rigorous fasting, prayer, studying, meditation, devotion to the poor, and self-flagellation.
After many years, he has acquired a level of self-mastery that truly astounds him as well as the numerous friends he has made in the monastery. But then he has an epiphany that causes him to well up with tears of deep gratitude.
For he looks around and sees, really sees for the first time, what he had taken granted for the past decade: the wonderful architecture, the mountains of books, the opulent sanctuary, the scores of friends he now calls family, all expressions of the love and selfless giving that made his journey possible.
Although the donors, volunteers, and fellow monks that contributed to these magnificent surroundings are often described by others as having helped relieve the burdens of its residents, it would not be accurate to think of this assistance in merely distributive terms, and in fact Peter cannot bring himself to see it that way, or at least not anymore.
Yes, there was pain and suffering, all deserved, of course, and Peter knows that if not for this overabundance of charity his agony would have been worse. But he does not, indeed he cannot, view this charity as a mere amelioration of what could have been.
Rather, he sees his experience as an organic whole, ordered toward both his good and the good of those with whom he lives in fellowship. The charity and the suffering worked in concert for a proper end.
If you understand this story, you understand the Catholic account of Purgatory.
That depends on his heart not his purse, nor on the numbers praying for him. If during his life, he had one person bless him, that is worth more than gold.
Nowhere - in fact, quite the opposite: Jesus said to the thieves crucified with him that they would be with him today in Heaven.
Today’s Gospel”
“Until you have paid the last penny.”
Thank you. It’s sister, by the way :) And peace to you too.
No he didn’t say heaven; he said Paradise.
Paradise was where all the souls of the faithful who had died were waiting for Jesus to be the first one into heaven.
Don’t you read the Gospels?
One of them talks about the souls who awoke from their graves and wandered about Jerusalem, visible only to the believers.......they wandered for three days while Christ was in the tomb.
Then on the third day, the Resurrection, Christ rose from the dead and opened heaven. At least that is what I have always been taught.
Then the people waiting in Paradise could also follow.
Purgatory: An Objection Answered
Essays for Lent: Purgatory
Of saints, sinners, and purgatorial souls [Catholic Caucus]
First Things - Purgatory for Everyone
What the Church means by Purgatory
Radio Replies Second Volume - Purgatory
Purgatory Exists. And It Burns
The Month of November: Thoughts on the "Last Things"
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)
Radio Replies First Volume - Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
The Heroic Act [Catholic-Orthodox Caucus] (Offering everything for the Souls in Purgatory)
MONTLIGEON MIRACLE: HOW PRIEST TURNED INTO 'TRAVELING SALESMAN' OF PURGATORY
IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Purgatory: Service Shop for Heaven [Ecumernical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
OF GUARDIAN ANGELS AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY NOT JUST ON EARTH BUT IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
IN ANNALS OF SAINTS IS CONVERT'S STRIKING DEDICATION TO THOSE SOULS IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus] What Happens After Death?
Purgatory
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory
Praying for the dead [Purgatory]
just a wild guess, but you're (note spelling) a protestant...Right???
That is not the case; it is the basis of salvation and is much of the Mass. There are some add-ons that raise questions among those of us who have mixed religious training (I was baptized Catholic, raised Pentecostal, am married to a Catholic and a choir member and communicant in the Church). My core belief is that God looks upon the heart, not the form of worship.
My theory about Purgatory is that it is a "tradition of men" created with good intent: even though we are sinners saved by grace, if we fear the punishment maybe we'll sin a little less. I'm sure that HE will explain it to us later.
Luther's bogus song and dance about Christ sprinkling a bit of snow on a dung heap which the Father then winks at is itself a pile of dung that needs disposed of, not covered with something to hide it. Nothing impure will enter Heaven, not something hidden under some snow, not something with a Harry Potter invisibility cloak, nothing. That means those who die in less than a state of perfection need to be purified.
Given the frequency with which those who side with Luther mention that we're all still sinners and how often so many people take Luther's advice to sin boldly, there's no way such folks can even claim we're all pure when we die. The rare individual may be, but nearly everyone is still going to have a sinner's mind and frame of reference on things they haven't dealt with during their lifetime. How can anyone who claims to believe in Scripture, Scripture that says we're to be perfect even as the Father is perfect argue that when Paul said we would be purified as if by fire he wasn't serious and explaining that we need to be refined prior to moving on to Heaven?
Most of those who want to argue about Purgatory are arguing straw-men and their own misunderstanding of what Purgatory is. I know, I did that myself most of my life. If you open your heart and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you, though, Purgatory and everything else the Church teaches is right there in front of you in Scriptures. The only thing in your way are the self imposed scales on your eyes.
If you die and are not dropped into Hell, you're in Paradise because you know you're destined for Heaven, you know nothing can keep you from getting there, and you know that Jesus Christ is waiting for you with open arm. If you have to undergo a process of purification before you get there it may be painful in some way but you'll still be far happier than you've ever been during your lifetime in spite of your grief over having offended God so much when you were alive.
Need some thought and prayer to answer that effectively. I can tell you, however, it's NOT the Qur'an!
ah yes...sola scriptura....if the bible doesn't say it....it isn't. The Bible does, however, condemn a variety of interpretations system where everyone gets to decide on the correct interpretation. For 1,600 years purgatory was considered pretty much a stepping stone to heaven.....but along came the revolution (note I didn't say reformation) and suddenly, lo and behold, you can walk into heaven soiled, without the state of grace, can live life as you please, as long as you claim that you are SAVED....WOW, what an easy life this would be.....Purgatory is in the bible right after ahe word "alone" introdeced by Martin Luther.
Worth repeating:
Which sins or offenses are not covered under Christ’s shed blood, that cause post-death “pain and suffering” to be created for and endured by the presumptive purgatory denizen?
me neither....on the other hand there would be none....the Blood of Jesus Christ is he gift of eternal salvation, Catholics know that and they carried that belief through 1,600 years of trevail so that even protestants could avail themselves of the gift.....HOWEVER, every one of us is fully free to REJECT the gift of God which we do if we do not follow His direct, and quite easy to understand, instructions."upon this rock (Peter) I will build My church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail againsg it"....I'll accept that, and follow her rules.
With all due respect, the good thief argument only works if man thinks as God thinks (i.e. that God agrees with you that if anyone ought to go to purgatory, it'd be the good thief for sure) or if the crucifixion itself was not a form of purgation/sanctification.
Personally I think there's every reason to believe the good thief (Jesus said it to the one who repented, not to both of them) didn't need purgatory. We know from scripture (Mt 27:44, Mk 15:32) that both thieves reviled Jesus, so apparently one experienced conversion during his crucifixion.
In Lk 23:41 the good thief acknowledges his sinfulness (admitting that he deserves death) and Jesus' innocence. In the next verse he makes a plea for mercy ("remember me") and acknowledges the Messiah ("when you come into your kingly power.")
The good thief reminds me of Zech 12:10, looking on the pierced one and availing himself of the fountain opened (Zech 13:1) at that very hour. Can you imagine the agony to speak while being crucified? Yet a guilty one finds strength to plead for mercy. And the savior suffering right beside him grants his request.
I often think of the good thief when I think of the parable of the day workers, where the last hired get the same pay as the ones hired in the morning. The good thief wasn't eloquent. He didn't speak many words. But apparently he spoke with enough love that it moved the very Heart about to be pierced for us all. Praise God for his mercy!
Peace be with you.
people who die for the faith (Martyrs) and people who die at the time of their conversions, become sin free and are entitled to Heaven immediately....pretty simple.
1/100 of Roe vs Wade
I don’t agree - paradise and heaven are one in the same -
“The story of the penitent thief has sometimes been considered the most surprising, the most suggestive, the most instructive incident in all the Gospel narrative. ... In the salvation of one of the thieves theology finds one of its finest demonstrations.
Sacrementalism was refuted, for the thief was saved without recourse to baptism, the Lord’s Supper, church, ceremony, or good works.
The dogma of purgatory was refuted, for this vile sinner was instantly transformed into a saint and made fit for paradise apart from his personal expiation of a single sin.
The teaching of universalism was refuted, for only one was saved of all who might have been saved. Jesus did not say, “Today shall ye be with me in paradise”, but “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
The notion of soul-sleep was refuted, for the clear implication of the entire incident is that the redeemed thief would be in conscious fellowship with his Saviour in paradise even while his body disintegrated in some grave.
Too, it is doubtful whether any other gospel incident presents the plan of salvation more clearly or simply.” —Dr. Charles R. Erdman)
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Find the Catechism of the Catholic Church on-line or find a copy and read from page 47 Paragraph 153, through page 53 Paragraph 165. It's spelled out there in great detail so as to avoid all sorts errors people have made over the centuries but it's also plenty clear enough for anyone to understand. The RCC very definitely does teach Salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ alone whether folks you're around teach that or not.
What the RCC does NOT teach because the Scriptures do NOT teach it is the bogus "once saved always saved" marketing slogan that Luther started. That's why confession of sins and the Grace that comes to us through the Eucharist is so important. It's not where our Salvation comes from, it's where the Grace to run the race all the way to our finish line comes from.
For clearly he was baptized, just not with water.
The equivalent sacramental baptism of water, which in God's providence is sufficient to enable a person to obtain the state of grace and to save his or her soul. According to the Church's teaching, "Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictate of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatical Council, Constitution on the Church, I, 16).
Martyrdom in the case of a person who died for the Christian faith before he or she could receive the sacrament. The effects of martyrdom of blood are the complete remission of sin and the title to immediate entrance into heaven. The expression entered the Christian vocabulary during the first three centuries when many catechumens awaiting baptism and pagans suddenly converted to the Christian faith were martyred before they could receive formal baptism of water.
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