Atonement from the Ship in Purgatory by Joseph Anton Koch, c. 1825
Posted on 10/26/2012 2:28:43 PM PDT by NYer
In Catholic theology, Purgatory is a state (or a process, not necessarily a place) to which one’s soul travels if one has died in a state of grace, but nevertheless retains unremitted venial sins and certain ingrained bad habits and dispositions.
That is, Purgatory is a state for the redeemed who are not yet perfected. It is not a halfway house between Heaven and Hell. In Purgatory, you willingly undergo the quality and quantity of pain and suffering that is uniquely prepared for you so that you may enter Heaven unblemished.
But the dead in Purgatory do not go through this alone. Those of us who are living may provide assistance to them by offering prayers, alms, Masses, indulgences, etc. without, apparently, undermining the point of Purgatory.
Some Protestants, even those who are Purgatory-friendly, have raised an objection to this account. They argue that, if undergoing the pains of Purgatory is necessary for a soul’s purification, then wouldn’t the assistance of the living impair that purification?
That is, if I fast and pray for the poor souls in Purgatory so that they may receive some relief from their suffering, how is that helping their purification if the process requires a particular amount of agony?
The mistake the critic is making is that he is thinking of Purgatory in terms of distributive justice, that the assistance of the living is a rival to the performance of the deceased as if the entire enterprise were a zero-sum game.
He is, of course, not entirely to blame, since the Church and its theologians sometimes use the juridical language of satisfaction and debt to describe Purgatory, its punishments, and the role that the living play in diminishing those punishments.
Nevertheless, as a technical matter, the Church’s understanding of the justice exacted in Purgatory has always been teleological. “Justice,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, “is so-called inasmuch as it implies a certain rectitude of order in the interior disposition of a man, in so far as what is highest in man is subject to God, and the inferior powers of the soul are subject to the superior.”
Atonement from the Ship in Purgatory by Joseph Anton Koch, c. 1825
This is why two Church councils – Orange and Trent – employ the metaphor of the vine and the branches (John 15:1-17) in order to express the relationship between the members of Christ’s body, both living and dead, as they assist each other on the journey to Paradise. The Council of Trent affirms:
For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches, continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace….
Perhaps a concrete example will help. Peter is a child growing up in the midst of a broken home. As a consequence, he develops vices that lead him to a life of crime and debauchery.
Suppose as a young adult he undergoes a conversion experience, though he finds it difficult to change his old habits. He often finds himself tempted to return to his former life, though he knows that it will destroy him.
Fed up with this internal struggle, he pursues a cloistered life of spiritual discipline that includes rigorous fasting, prayer, studying, meditation, devotion to the poor, and self-flagellation.
After many years, he has acquired a level of self-mastery that truly astounds him as well as the numerous friends he has made in the monastery. But then he has an epiphany that causes him to well up with tears of deep gratitude.
For he looks around and sees, really sees for the first time, what he had taken granted for the past decade: the wonderful architecture, the mountains of books, the opulent sanctuary, the scores of friends he now calls family, all expressions of the love and selfless giving that made his journey possible.
Although the donors, volunteers, and fellow monks that contributed to these magnificent surroundings are often described by others as having helped relieve the burdens of its residents, it would not be accurate to think of this assistance in merely distributive terms, and in fact Peter cannot bring himself to see it that way, or at least not anymore.
Yes, there was pain and suffering, all deserved, of course, and Peter knows that if not for this overabundance of charity his agony would have been worse. But he does not, indeed he cannot, view this charity as a mere amelioration of what could have been.
Rather, he sees his experience as an organic whole, ordered toward both his good and the good of those with whom he lives in fellowship. The charity and the suffering worked in concert for a proper end.
If you understand this story, you understand the Catholic account of Purgatory.
I would NOT want to be the priest, bishop, cardinal or pope who stands before THE LORD JESUS CHRIST to be judged after they spent their life and ministry telling people that the BLOOD OF CHRIST was not sufficient to provide full and complete Salvation!
Of course, the planet has long been hip to the fact that the whole “purgatory” schtick was a scam to fleece the suckers, who would pony up ca$h to “buy” their loved ones out of there.
God is NOT at all amused by this fraud!
The problem with imaginary scenarios like you offered, though a beautiful imagery, is that it fails because of the poor understanding of dimension Time. Though you and I were made by God such that we sense only events that have passed, God does not have that temporal limitation. All of time and thus your entire life is open to God all at the same time, so when you accept the Christ, God is not limited to atoning through Christs blood only your past behaviors/sins.
God cleanses you from ALL unrighteousness by the efficacy of Christ's blood, not by an deeds which you may do, lest any man boast. If God could not cleanse you from ALL unrighteousness at the moment you first believed on Him (Christ as your Redeemer), then Satan would have more than enough room to snatch you from God's hand. But that is impossible because you are reborn, a new Creation in Christ Jesus, thus the new you is unassailable.
'Whether I live or die matters not, for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Nevertheless I remain for your sakes though I would rather to be with the Lord.' The old nature inherited from Adam will in NO WAY be acceptable to enter into the Lord's presence. No purgatory can make it 'cleaner' for God's Presence. ONLY the new you will be present with the Lord.
God needs nothing to perfect your salvation. Jesus paid it all, all to Him you owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as 'grey'? ... Hardly. Purgatory is a man-made concept probably for empowerment reasons known only to the authors of the scheme.
Is The Catholic Church a force for salvation of men? Absolutely, for these vagaries like we're discussing do not Save or lose you, they only confuse you.
Catholics believe in the efficacy of Christ's blood! Belief doesn't exempt us from discipline, does it? Doesn't Hebrews 12 tell us that God disciplines those he loves? Chastises every son he receives? That discipline is what a loving parent does to his children? Do you believe this discipline means that Christ's blood was not efficacious?
if the saved have to go to purgatory in order to be 'finished' then God's perspective on Time is limited.
The saved don't "have to go to purgatory in order to be 'finished.' " What Catholics believe is that those of us who still clung to various sins will choose to undergo a final discipline (purifying, purgation, sanctification) before entering into the glory of heaven. And we think of it not as a period of time (it could be instantaneous) or a place but a state of further purification in preparation to behold the vision of God forever. And it's something we choose more than something we're sentenced to.
Whereas, The God WQho Created all has a temporal perspective which includes all of time, past, present, and future, so the inference that somehow when one is saved God can only cleanse from past sin is, in my honest opinion, blasphemous!
It isn't that God can't cleanse me whenever he likes. It's that I chose to cling to some of my dirt. Purgatory is his final, loving discipline, a great act of mercy. He's treating me as his child before presenting me to his glorious kingdom. And it is only because of the merit of Christ's sacrifice that I get that final sanctification or the entry into his kingdom afterward.
Peace be with you. Say what you will about us Catholics, but my parish will be meeting tonight for a prayer vigil as we do every Friday evening before the elections. Will you unite with me in prayer this evening, for even a moment, to pray for our nation? Thanks :)
Peace be with you ...
But what concerns me most at this moment is: Praying to get this Nation of Purgatory.
What great sin did this nation commit to deserve such a horrendous punishment these past 4 years?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the answer is that a clear majority of us voted 4 years ago to put this pestilence in the WH.
Pray that the number of "Fool Me Twice, .... uhhh ... what was the question again?" voters is small.
What do you consider to be holy scripture?
1 million children executed for the crime of being inconvenient to their mothers isn’t enough?
There are many objections to the construct of purgatory, this one (that assistance would impair the purification process) is down the list, but Beckwith’s answer that “grace” thereby abounds seems a sick twist on the antinomianism that Paul forsees in Rom. 6:1.
The good works set forth by Beckwith seem to be for the glory of the RCC rather than the glory of God.
Infants entered into the Covenant in the OT when they were eight days old so it's obvious that they should enter into the New Covenant through baptism while infants as well. But lots of people like to pretend that since it there is no explicit example of an infant being baptized that it's wrong to do so. Wrong in spite of the fact that whole households are baptized and a household encompassed everyone in the family and even the slaves they owned.
Prayers for the dead are clearly mentioned in the Old Testament, and purification as if by fire is clearly mentioned in the New Testament. So, it's there but not clearly singled out and specifically mentioned.
Therefore both Purgatory and infant Baptism are based on Scripture at the very least as much as the use of contraceptives to murder your children is. All three things are clearly part of the True Faith because Christ and the Apostles never specifically mentioned that they are wrong.
It's always really funny to see people who say murdering infants with contraceptives is fine because it's not mentioned in Scripture turn around and pontificate that something taught in the Old Testament is not true because it's not explicitly mentioned in the New Testament. It's funny because it's absolute proof of the fact that those who pretend to rely on Scripture Alone are never consistent.
They can't be consistent because in reality they rely on their own Self Alone rather than Scripture.
Anyone who starts with throwing out part of the Scriptures isn't basing what they believe on the Scriptures no matter what they've been taught to the contrary. They're relying on and worshiping their own, Most High and Holy Self who they grant the authority to ignore, twist, and even throw out Scripture if they don't like what it says.
As for standing before Christ, none of the folks you mention will have any problem due to believing in Purgatory because Purgatory is based directly on Scripture. Scripture the Protestant crowd threw out in spite of the fact that Christ and the Apostles never mentioned that there were any errors in the Old Testament.
The people who are going to have a real problem are those who have to explain why they saw nothing wrong with throwing out portions of the Scriptures, murdering their own children with contraceptives, and telling others that when incarnate on earth Christ was either too stupid to make Himself understood or a liar when He said, “this is my Body”.
What an ignorant question. You must be a Protestant.
And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. [9] For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. [10] According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3)
Are you saying that Paul laid the foundation for purgatory, annalex? He clearly states that he laid the foundation according to the grace of God that was given him. Wouldn’t that make him of greater importance to the Catholic Church than Peter?
No I am not saying that. Certainly St. Paul is not saying that: "neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." Since you ask, Jesus laid the foundation for the Purgatory by His death and Resurrection on the cross. St. Paul speaks of the foundation of the faith in Christ that he provided by his priesthood.
Jews had taught about Purgatory before Paul was ever born and understood there was a place where people would suffer for what they’d done while alive even though they were not damned to Hell. Paul is explaining that an existing understanding is correct and still in place under the New Covenant, not adding anything new at all.
St. Paul was a priest? Are all priests given the authority by God to lay foundations? Which foundation did Peter lay? Was it the same as Paul? But wait, it couldn’t have been. Because Paul said HE was given this foundation of grace to lay. He did NOT say he was building on any foundation that God have given Peter to lay. It was different. Both built on Jesus Christ. But Paul said he was a masterbuilder. He did not say he was contracting with Peter. Don’t you find that interesting?
Is that indeed what Paul is explaining? Because that is not at all what the Scripture annalex quoted says. Paul calls himself a masterbuilder of this foundation, not merely a gopher. According to the grace of God that was given to him. It certainly sounds like something big had happened to me.
Yes, all priests have an obligation to teach the Catholic faith and that is what St. Paul did, as well as any obedient priest, including of course St. Peter or the one in your parish, or mine. what does it have to do with Jim’s ignorance of the Holy Scripture as regards the Purgatory?
Or are you in this thread to make noise?
What of the New Covenant is new and in no way connected to the Old Testament and the Old Covenant?
What part of the promise of Christ coming was never made clear in the Old Testament?
What part of Christ being our only way to Salvation wasn't part of His being the Messiah as promised in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant?
Purgatory is a process not a place and while that's made more clear here and therefore a change from what the Jews already taught Paul isn't espousing any new doctrine not already understood even if it wasn't clearly understood. Clarifying and explaining anything that's at this point more clearly understood or altered in some way under the New Covenant is a new foundation the same way adding onto you house requires a new foundation for the addition to rest on.
I’m on this thread to understand why your church believes and teaches that purgatory is in the Bible. You used Pauline Scripture to prove your point. I am questioning that interpretation you have. Did Paul have keys to the kingdom, like Peter, since they were both laying foundations, based on Jesus Christ as the cornerstone?
LOL. Does that need something like, /rht, as in a rhetorical tag?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.