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To: JimRed

Nowhere - in fact, quite the opposite: Jesus said to the thieves crucified with him that they would be with him today in Heaven.


43 posted on 10/26/2012 6:51:44 PM PDT by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: kabumpo

No he didn’t say heaven; he said Paradise.

Paradise was where all the souls of the faithful who had died were waiting for Jesus to be the first one into heaven.

Don’t you read the Gospels?

One of them talks about the souls who awoke from their graves and wandered about Jerusalem, visible only to the believers.......they wandered for three days while Christ was in the tomb.

Then on the third day, the Resurrection, Christ rose from the dead and opened heaven. At least that is what I have always been taught.

Then the people waiting in Paradise could also follow.


46 posted on 10/26/2012 7:02:37 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: kabumpo
NO, he said "Paradise" not Heaven and the two are not one and the same thing. God the Father is in Heaven and nothing impure enters there.

Luther's bogus song and dance about Christ sprinkling a bit of snow on a dung heap which the Father then winks at is itself a pile of dung that needs disposed of, not covered with something to hide it. Nothing impure will enter Heaven, not something hidden under some snow, not something with a Harry Potter invisibility cloak, nothing. That means those who die in less than a state of perfection need to be purified.

Given the frequency with which those who side with Luther mention that we're all still sinners and how often so many people take Luther's advice to sin boldly, there's no way such folks can even claim we're all pure when we die. The rare individual may be, but nearly everyone is still going to have a sinner's mind and frame of reference on things they haven't dealt with during their lifetime. How can anyone who claims to believe in Scripture, Scripture that says we're to be perfect even as the Father is perfect argue that when Paul said we would be purified as if by fire he wasn't serious and explaining that we need to be refined prior to moving on to Heaven?

Most of those who want to argue about Purgatory are arguing straw-men and their own misunderstanding of what Purgatory is. I know, I did that myself most of my life. If you open your heart and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you, though, Purgatory and everything else the Church teaches is right there in front of you in Scriptures. The only thing in your way are the self imposed scales on your eyes.

If you die and are not dropped into Hell, you're in Paradise because you know you're destined for Heaven, you know nothing can keep you from getting there, and you know that Jesus Christ is waiting for you with open arm. If you have to undergo a process of purification before you get there it may be painful in some way but you'll still be far happier than you've ever been during your lifetime in spite of your grief over having offended God so much when you were alive.

50 posted on 10/26/2012 7:19:53 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: kabumpo
Jesus said to the thieves crucified with him that they would be with him today in Heaven.

With all due respect, the good thief argument only works if man thinks as God thinks (i.e. that God agrees with you that if anyone ought to go to purgatory, it'd be the good thief for sure) or if the crucifixion itself was not a form of purgation/sanctification.

Personally I think there's every reason to believe the good thief (Jesus said it to the one who repented, not to both of them) didn't need purgatory. We know from scripture (Mt 27:44, Mk 15:32) that both thieves reviled Jesus, so apparently one experienced conversion during his crucifixion.

In Lk 23:41 the good thief acknowledges his sinfulness (admitting that he deserves death) and Jesus' innocence. In the next verse he makes a plea for mercy ("remember me") and acknowledges the Messiah ("when you come into your kingly power.")

The good thief reminds me of Zech 12:10, looking on the pierced one and availing himself of the fountain opened (Zech 13:1) at that very hour. Can you imagine the agony to speak while being crucified? Yet a guilty one finds strength to plead for mercy. And the savior suffering right beside him grants his request.

I often think of the good thief when I think of the parable of the day workers, where the last hired get the same pay as the ones hired in the morning. The good thief wasn't eloquent. He didn't speak many words. But apparently he spoke with enough love that it moved the very Heart about to be pierced for us all. Praise God for his mercy!

Peace be with you.

55 posted on 10/26/2012 7:45:33 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot ("A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."--Eccl 10:2)
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To: kabumpo
Nowhere - in fact, quite the opposite: Jesus said to the thieves crucified with him that they would be with him today in Heaven

people who die for the faith (Martyrs) and people who die at the time of their conversions, become sin free and are entitled to Heaven immediately....pretty simple.

56 posted on 10/26/2012 7:49:02 PM PDT by terycarl
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