LOOK! Over THERE!!
Posted on 09/10/2012 6:58:49 PM PDT by NorthernCrunchyCon
Wagon Train Descendants tell tale of 1857 massacre in Utah
Taping an episode of WTJR's "Truth Outreach" with host Rocky Hulse, the four men forgot about the cameras.
They didn't forget their story.
A massacre in 1857 in southwest Utah claimed the lives of some of their ancestors. What came to be called the Mountain Meadows Massacre shadows each generation, but Scott Fancher said the public knows little of "one of the single most important historical incidents" in the nation's history.
"Apart from the Oklahoma City bombing, this was the single largest act of domestic white-on-white violence in the history of the U.S.," he said.
The 150th anniversary of the massacre on Sept. 11 renews the push by Scott Fancher, Bob Fancher, Phil Bolinger, Ron Wright and the Mountain Meadows Massacre Foundation to boost awareness and gain federal stewardship of the property where the events occurred.
The effort pits the foundation against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints , which controls the burial sites and, the men say, has never taken responsibility for the deaths of 120 men, women and children.
Scott Fancher said perpetrators included church leaders and militia members. "They have never once apologized to the families of the massacred victims," he said. "We think frankly it's high damn time."
Alexander Fancher thought it was time to start a new life as a rancher in California in 1857. He gathered up 140 people — mostly relatives who were Methodists, not LDS members — and left Arkansas with 40 wagons, close to 1,000 cattle and 200 horses.
The Fanchon-Baker train was one of the wealthiest and best-provisioned wagon trains to make the trip through Kansas , then onto Salt Lake City and southwest Utah.
"What they didn't know probably was at the time Utah Territory was in rebellion against the U.S.," Bob Fanchon said.
"This wagon train happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time," Bolinger said.
The train was besieged by Indians and local Mormons dressed as Indians. Fighting lasted until Sept. 11, when John D. Lee, representing the Mormons and the adopted son of Mormon leader Brigham Young , rode into the wagon camp under a white flag. Lee said the Indians would allow train member to leave, unarmed and without their possessions, under a Mormon escort.
The wagon train members — women holding their infants, children under the age of eight in one group, older children in another group and the men with individual Mormon escorts — walked along a one-mile stretch away from the wagons. Then a signal was given, and all but the youngest were massacred.
"The men mostly were lucky enough to be shot at point-blank range. The women and children, most of them received a billy club to the head," Bolinger said.
The attackers not only took the wagons and all the goods, but stripped the bodies of clothing and jewelry, Bob Fanchon said, and the bodies were left on the ground. The surviving children were taken in by Mormon families.
"It was such a horrible mess. They rerouted the wagon train (route) several miles so they wouldn't be able to smell the stink of the rot," Bolinger said.
U.S. Army Maj. James Carleton led the investigation of the incident. Carleton buried the dead in four mass graves, including one that came to be known as the Carleton Cairn marked with a cross, along the mile-long killing field. He testified before Congress and the Army returned the surviving children to their families in Arkansas in 1859.
Fifty-four warrants were issued, but Lee was the only one arrested.
"To this day, he was the only one out of the 50-plus clubbers and shooters that were on the killing field that day ever tried, convicted, executed and held responsible," Bolinger said.
"For the longest time, the Indians were blamed wrongly, the emigrants themselves were blamed," Scott Fanchon said. "More recently, the LDS church to its credit has admitted at least local Mormons were involved which we've all known."
The original cairn was destroyed and rebuilt several times. The most recent monument was built in 1999 by the church.
"It has a little plaque embedded in it the basically says the site is owned and maintained by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . That's all the interpretation we get for the victims, for our families," Bolinger said.
Bolinger said the foundation won some initial support from Elder Marlin Jensen, the church's liaison with massacre descendant organizations, but lost that after church leadership declared it was "not in the best interest of the church" to pursue federal stewardship.
As a compromise, the foundation has asked the church to consider national historic landmark designation as a way to protect and preserve the site.
"The LDS church as an institution promotes many of its historic sites to be designated including Nauvoo and Temple Square," Scott Fanchon said. "When they say we don't want the federal government involved, we say it's a bit hypocritical."
Church spokespeople in Salt Lake City did not return a call from The Herald-Whig.
In a June story by the Associated Press, spokeswoman Kim Farah said Mormon leaders are committed to appropriately preserving the site.
"The church has owned the monument site at Mountain Meadows for many years. The property is open to the public, and considerable time and resources are allocated to ensure that the property is well-maintained, open to the public, and that those who perished there are appropriately remembered," she said.
In the same article, Bolinger said it's not right for the church to own the site. "How do you think the Kennedy family would feel if the Lee Harvey Oswald family had control of the Kennedy tomb?"
P.S. Just wanted to add that I am not ignoring your comments regarding current ails being due to failure to follow the Constitution, and a need to return to constitutionalism in the Republic. I simply did not respond initially because I am in complete agreement with you on this point, which is one of the reasons I support Virgil Goode at the top.
Further downticket, I feel the best choice is to support conservative Republicans through time, money and resources. (Already assuming one will vote strait Republican). Strong principled conservatives in the House, Senate, governor’s mansion, state office, local office, the courts will give Republicans plenty of conservatives to choose from in the future.
I understand your viewpoint, I used to share it. But I find it overly reliant on personal politics (one guy/gal can fix things). Neither Thatcher nor Reagan fixed anything long term, they just applied the brakes. I am now focused on a broad front stategy to move the populace to a different paradigm.
As a cauion, history also shows people choosing to go further to the Left when that is presented successfully as an alternative. Societies do not return from that without bloodshed.
Should Obama win, I will be trying to make your strategy work. As I said, I’m about achieving victory with any hand I’m dealt.
Dewey, you've made a serious accusation and I asked politely for reference link to support this claim. You have not responded.
As an amateur 25+ year student of LDS history, I do not believe this claim is true. I believe it's a claim that's been made up to support LDS exaggerations of persecution. I'm not saying that you are lying; I'm just suggesting that you may be repeating LDS lore that you've been told, but that has no basis in fact.
If you have any sources, preferably a reliable source, for this claim, then I would appreciate adding it to my knowledge bank. Otherwise, I looked it up and find no basis for your claim.
In many ways, this is what has bothered me the most about the Romney run for POTUS. His run for the WH has probably done more to divide the conservative movement than anything in my lifetime. The open hostility that has been expressed to me and others who won't vote for Romney has been shocking. I can understand why someone would vote for Mitt out of pragmatism as I can understand someone withholding a vote from Mitt on principle. His mere presence on the top of the ballot forces conservatives into that dilemma. The one thing that we can agree on is that Mitt without constraint is not a good thing for either the country or the conservative movement.
Interestingly, your ‘best case’ scenario wouldn't be possible if everyone committed to your strategy.
I agree. For my scenario to play out at least some conservatives in purple states are going to have to hold their noses and vote for Romney. Conservatives in solid red or blue states can withhold our vote - there are enough RINOs in my state that Mitt doesn't have to worry.
Instead of picking at scabs with this type of article, I would recommend that you be straight forward about your strategy and reasons for it here on FR (as you have laid out in your responses to me).
I've been involved in Mormon apologetics since I signed up on this forum a decade ago. Long before Mitt Romney decided to run for POTUS. It has been a passion of mine since I became a Christian 30+ years ago and the Holy Spirit saved me from Mormonism when I was a very naive about spiritual matters. I have no intention of stopping just because it is inconvenient to Mitt Romney and troubling to his supporters. As I stated earlier, I'm a Christian first, a conservative second, and a Republican third. I'm not going to let a third tier priority derail a first tier priority.
I have tried to present my views. Some Romney supporters have been understanding of my position, but most have been dismissive and insulting. They are apparently offended because some people won't vote for their candidate and they either try to shout the critics down or bully them into silence. Very few respond with anything of substance. Conservatives need to realize that regardless of this election's outcome, we will not have an ally in the WH. I'm very concerned that Cicero may be proven right and that the enemy within the gate will be far more dangerous than the enemy outside the gate. Despite the abuse, I have no intention of going away and will continue to express my views.
I apologize to you about my testy response last night. It was pretty snarky. I had just been dealing with one of those unreasonable knee-jerk Mittbots whose sole purpose on FR seems to be to insult anyone who hasn't completely committed to Romney. I was still annoyed at that attempt to shout me down and took it out on you.
You. Don’t. Matter.
To be quite fair, I think I pressed the snarky button first.
We all have our moments.
I’m glad we got past that, as I’ve enjoyed hearing what you had to say.
Interesting. I understand and appreciate your viewpoint, because that was mine as well when I first became politically active, mainly because of my strong belief as a Christian in the sanctity of human life. (Fiscally I was a liberal back then).
I don’t see us agreeing on Romney, although I think you and I have the same goal in mind - a restoration of conservative values and the principles of the Constitution.
We may disagree over Romney, but I hope we will share the opportunity to help elect conservative Republicans down ticket.
Me, too, on both of those points. I certainly see you as part of the conservative team even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.
I hope this is not yet another hit-and-run poster, but one that will actually LOOK for the information that they most fervently pass on as fact.
Uh...
Exposing the history of MORMONism?
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
George Santayana
You'll have to try harder to piss someone off.
Or maybe I'm wrong.
I think you do it wrong.
You claiming he's a FALSE PROPHET?
LOOK! Over THERE!!
Some folks just can't get over it; either.
I was thinking the same sort of thing, with a 2012 sign-up date. I haven’t looked at the posting history.
Another botched attempt.
The logic of this and other anti-MormonISM threads is simply this: MormonISM was not perfect in the 19th, 20th or 21st centuries.
It is a heresy from hell.
You have correctly identified the problem.
Will it take 157 years before the same sentiment is felt about 4 dead Americans in Libya?
Not quite right.
It's ONLY the RF that let's CHRISTIANs have free rein to expose MORMONism's falsehoods.
All OTHER forums have to UNITE to get OBAMA out of the White House.
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