Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
A Jewish class on why Jews do not accept Christianity. I post for Jews to self-educate and for Christians to understand the Jewish point of view--not that it matters (that they do.)
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No..I understand that completely, what I am trying to say is that G-d in his infinite wisdom has created some kind of supernatural scientiic process that can transform a Spiritual Entity into a Physical Entity, the fact that G-d has no form does not make it impossible for G-d to transform into the Physical, otherwise the Angels would be greater than G-d if they could do something G-d cannot do..
No?
“How and when does a Jew for Jesus stop being Jewish...Is there some Catholic-style formal ex-communication, or is it more like an Amish-like shunning? Naturally, I’m not one myself, but I always wondered about this.”
~ ~ ~
Read Our Lord’s words, we are in the New Covenant, Jesus
came to reveal who God is in and aren’t you happy, see...in
a much greater way!! These people who are stuck in the
Old Covenant not so much true people of Judaism but the
crazy Protestant/I’ll use a few Jewish terms modern sects.
God doesn’t do anything without telling us, the importance
of private revelation, God makes explicit His plan.
11/06/07
“Many teach the physical nation of Israel is the fulfillment of my scripture. Many teach the anti-Christ will resume the Jewish sacrifice in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem to constitute the abomination of desolation. This is a false teaching, not from God, but from human understanding. My son, in the book of Daniel, the persecution by the Jews under Antiochus can be considered a partial fulfillment of the abomination of desolation. But the complete fulfillment has not yet taken place. At my death, the veil in the temple was rent in two and the old sacrificial covenant was replaced by my new covenant. My sacrifice on the cross was the final sacrifice for my peoples’ sin. I am the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. I am the seed of Abraham, the son of David, in whom all the nations of the earth are blessed. My nation of Israel is my church, not the modern nation of Israel. My people are now all those who become part of my church through sanctifying grace. The complete fulfillment of the prophecy from Daniel of the abomination of desolation will occur: when the continual sacrifice of the mass is abolished by the false prophet and the anti-Christ.”
Personally, (as you may guess), I would not agree with that assessment.
Christianity has done many wonders throughout history and even today majority-Christian nations are keeping much evil in check.
However, perversions of Christianity (for example the Nazis were from an historically christian nation, but turned to other religions for their inspiration) cause trouble.
All of us need to keep a check on our baser nature, but Christianity itself in its true form is not a force for evil, but good. Hoping not to offend...have a good day.
“You didnt really answer B and C.”
Yes I did. But Jews tend to lose consciousness when they read their own scripture.
Number one, this is arguing then that Israel, corporately, can take on the sins of others (though they are innocent) and be offered, corporately, as a sin offering.
This, of course, has never been true historically. The Bible is full of divine judgments upon others and including the Jews. Especially the destruction in 70ad, if you know anything about the extreme apostasy of the Jews of that time. You are also arguing that, perhaps, killing Jews is good because it fulfills Isaiah 53. I do not think that is your position, though.
This only makes sense, therefore, if this servant is the promised Messiah who was predicted to appear:
Gen_49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Then there is the scripture just prior to 53:
Isa 52:13-15 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. (14) As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: (15) So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
This fits rather perfectly with Christ and the Gentiles embracing “for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.” The Jews, of course, had the Prophets, but the Gentiles never had that blessing. It also does not fit with Corporate Israel, unless you expect the Jewish people to be the saviors of the world one day.
Thirdly, the Redeemer of Israel is identified many times, for example:
Isa 48:12-17 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. (13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. (14) All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. (15) I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. (16) Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (17) Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Here the Redeemer, who is also God, sent from “the lord GOD, and His Spirit,” promises to save Israel. Just a few chapters later, a suffering redeemer is predicted in 53. This same redeemer is also a conqueror.
The Jews read all sorts of weird things into the scriptures, but this is the most natural understanding of Isaiah.
I think all will agree that G-d does not change...
Malachi 3:6
“I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
This would mean G-d’s Law for Mankind does not change which is *Torah*
and G-d’s Law for the Universe does not change....
The Sun still rises and goes down the same way it always has.
However: G-d is greater than the Angels he created, the fact that Angels can transform into the Physical World would mean G-d could do that as well, I am not saying he did rather that he could, because the Angels are not greater than the Creator who created them....
Paul was a Jewish Apostle to the Gentiles. Christ is King of the Jews. Those who worship God by their academics instead of their faithful thinking will tend to miss the spiritual life.
I believe there are Jews that do not know they are as in the Book the Lost Tribes of Israel...
I think recently they found a tribe in China...
Because of Western Culture most people think of Jewish people as European Caucasion , in fact the Jews consists of every race and have been found in Cherokee Indian tribes..Many Jewish tribes do exist without those people knowing there Jewish Origin.
“The sin offering in Isaiah is an Asham or guilt offering. This does not help the christian argument, it makes it fall.
An Asham only atones for a limited type of sin. It is NOT a chatat. And per Lev 5:11, even FLOUR atones...not a sacrificed animal. Also, the animal had to be killed on the altar, blood sprinkled on the sides of the altar, the animals fat and ofal burned. Jsus suffocated on a Roman torture device, his throat not slit, no blood sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned.”
Isaiah specifically teaches that this Redeemer would justify many, prolong His days and be exalted by “offering his soul as a sin offering.” If His sin offering was minor, it wouldn’t make a difference, and the entire prophecy loses its dramatic effect. Just logically your argument fails without having to go deeper into it. The word is also used when speaking of animal sacrifices and atonement for Priests and others.
The Jews often behave as pagans! But the weight of the scripture, from Daniel to Isaiah, speaks of a suffering Messiah who will be cut off in connection to a forgiveness of sins. Daniel even starts off that way, promising an “end to sin” at the end of it, though the end involves the destruction of the Temple. You are ignoring the most logical rendering of the scriptures.
I believe there are Jews that do not know they are as in the Book the Lost Tribes of Israel...
I think recently they found a tribe in China...
Because of Western Culture most people think of Jewish people as European Caucasion , in fact the Jews consists of every race and have been found in Cherokee Indian tribes..Many Jewish tribes do exist without those people knowing there Jewish Origin.
Whatever the state of Judaism at the time of the Romans’ destruction of the second Bais Hamikdash (Temple), has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I was addressing the fact that evangelism is hateful to Torah-true Jews, especially coming from our tormentors through the ages.
Still, I’ll take the trouble to tell you that the Jews prior to the Roman decimation had NOT fallen into “intense apostasy”. There were corrupt elements among the Jewish people and G-d found the conduct of the general population with regard to the way they treated each other was lacking. The prophets always spoke in harsh terms as a form of exhortation and because for the Jewish people, minor transgressions were deemed serious faults in their devotion because Hashem expected the very best behavior from them.
The nature of G-d’s judgment of Israel and of the Nations is beyond human comprehension and to the degree that it can be understood, it is far beyond the ken of non-Jews or Torah illiterate Jews. The suffering of the Jewish people is all part of G-d’s plan, but, consistent with that, not one agent of that suffering among the nations, nor a single deed will go unpunished in Hashem’s good time, which is forever. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with our rejection of the false prophet of Christianity. If anything, our steadfast refusal to bow before the church, the crusaders, the Spanish Inquisition and the countless attempts to force us to convert, is one of the most heroic stories of all time.
“What’s interesting is that you blame Christianity for your problems”. I don’t see where you got this from anything I said. I just said, the Christian track record of persecuting Jews makes them very poor messengers for telling us what our Torah means, just as their rejection of the Torah disqualifies Christians from telling Jews what to believe.
Luke, of course, wrote whatever he wrote after the events and simply repeated what had already been said by Jeremiah, Isaiah and other legitimate prophets. So citing his words means nothing to me.
True Torah prophecies have been fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled, including the prophecy that the Third Temple will be rebuilt, that the true Moshiach will soon arrive and that the Nations of the world will experience both a reckoning and a revelation that Hashem is the one true G-d and there never was and never will be any other.
“Acceptance of the protestant doctrine
The only difference between the “protestant doctrine” and the “catholic doctrine” is a matter of chicken and egg timing.
They are BOTH man made.
I accept the Word of G-d as my gospel.
Without my Redeemer, I am not redeemed.
If you truly believe the Word. It states “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” YESHUA was put through a human food processor to scatter his physical body throughout this world. Every breath you take, bite you eat, drink you drink, has the possibility and probability, to contain molecules used by, or of, our Savior.
He Lives! For Everyone. That is His doctrine.”
~ ~ ~
Ah...the mix. A little bit of Judaism and lot of Protestantism.
You don’t understand, there certainly is a difference between the faith and Protestantism. Do not be upset, take it so personally. You weren’t one of the original “reformers.” You can change, God wants you to, there is one Lord, one faith, one Baptism (Eph 4:5).
So...one Church, the same Church who gave your Bible.
There’s no point, do not use Old Testament words to preach Protestant heresy. We’re in the New Covenant and Protestantism said no, breaking away from the Church, accepting new false teachings, “Bible Alone”, “Faith
Alone” and from it more heresy, “Jesus covers all your sins so no “works” required, atoning for everything on the Cross”, “Man is completely depraved”, “OSAS”, “the altar call justifies you” and to me the saddest, denying the most Holy Eucharist and the New Covenant ministerial priesthood.
May I ask, you accept the ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament. Well then, who offers the “continual sacrifice” in the New Covenant? Only a priest offers sacrifice. Don’t come back with Our Lord is the eternal High Priest, we know, I am speaking of down here.
Why do you think one of the most Well Respected Rabbi’s
Rabbi Kaduri was not believed?
Rabbi Kaduri reveals name of Moshiach before death
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xCUnDuycPQ
“Whatever the state of Judaism at the time of the Romans’ destruction of the second Bais Hamikdash (Temple), has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I was addressing the fact that evangelism is hateful to Torah-true Jews, especially coming from our tormentors through the ages.”
It is inherently important, as it was judgment from God on the Jewish nation just like every other time the Temple was destroyed. But you do not stop and ask what was the judgment for? Why was there a genocide of Jews, Jews murdering Jews, cannibalism within the city, corruption upon every seat of power, and corruption and profanity even within the Temple itself as the end drew closer and closer. Why did such horrible things come to pass? And why was Israel so utterly scattered and persecuted so horribly over the past 2,000 years from communists to Nazis to Christians to non-Christians from city to city?
—
“Still, I’ll take the trouble to tell you that the Jews prior to the Roman decimation had NOT fallen into “intense apostasy”. There were corrupt elements among the Jewish people and G-d found the conduct of the general population with regard to the way they treated each other was lacking. “
So because of a few corrupt elements among the Jewish people God had people starve to death in Jerusalem, had mass crucifixions occur, had Jews murder Jews, and utterly destroyed the Temple, scattering the people, allowing humilation upon humiliation upon the Jewish people, and keeping it that way for almost 2,000 years... all because of some corrupt elements? And it was not just a few elements here or there. Even the High Priest, himself, at the time of the destruction was not legally a High Priest. You are describing a collapse of every level of society as a small problem... and then you claim to speak for God. But where did God express that opinion?
“The nature of G-d’s judgment of Israel and of the Nations is beyond human comprehension and to the degree that it can be understood, it is far beyond the ken of non-Jews or Torah illiterate Jews.”
The easy way to understand it is just to read Daniel’s 70 Weeks and then do the required math and see what time period you end up in.
Certainly your victimhood is your entire argument here. What I said was correct. I reject it, of course. Not because I think Jews deserve special judgment. But because I know it’s simply an emotional argument to forbid, rather conveniently, reasoning on the topic.
“Sorry, I hit post too soon. What I meant was... What is motivating factor behind arguing with Jews about JC?
You KNOW we don’t accept JC as messiah or Christian Bible. We aren’t going to budge.
But there is this widespread thing where everyone can’t accept that, while we are fine with people being Christians. How did Christians lose that when, for the lack of a better term, they changed all our stuff around?”
Why do I do it? Try reading what the thread is about. A Christian did not setup this thread.
If God did not become human, then what sacrifice do you have by which God may justly and righteously provide you with a human spirit discernible from our soul?
“I think all will agree that G-d does not change...
Malachi 3:6
“I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
This would mean G-d’s Law for Mankind does not change which is *Torah*
and G-d’s Law for the Universe does not change....
The Sun still rises and goes down the same way it always has.”...
~ ~ ~
True, God doesn’t change, He’s immutable. Humanity did
not have a full understanding of who God is in the Old Covenant. Our Lord who is God, came to reveal more about who God is and His plan for us. One new testament, God the Holy Spirit, Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Reason we have a New Covenant. You can’t stay in the Old
and declare it why you profess New Testament teachings.
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:
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