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To: blasater1960

“You didnt really answer B and C.”


Yes I did. But Jews tend to lose consciousness when they read their own scripture.


“The servant of Isaiah is identified multiple times in Isaiah 40 through 54. It is Israel, Jeshrun, Jacob and Zion. All are poetic prophetic collective nouns for for Jewish people corporately. Not once does Isaiah ever use or describe the servant as “messiah”. Not once. The prophet Isaiah constantly switches from a “singular” sevant...Jacob...and plural servants. for example.”

Number one, this is arguing then that Israel, corporately, can take on the sins of others (though they are innocent) and be offered, corporately, as a sin offering.

This, of course, has never been true historically. The Bible is full of divine judgments upon others and including the Jews. Especially the destruction in 70ad, if you know anything about the extreme apostasy of the Jews of that time. You are also arguing that, perhaps, killing Jews is good because it fulfills Isaiah 53. I do not think that is your position, though.

This only makes sense, therefore, if this servant is the promised Messiah who was predicted to appear:

Gen_49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Then there is the scripture just prior to 53:

Isa 52:13-15 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. (14) As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: (15) So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

This fits rather perfectly with Christ and the Gentiles embracing “for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.” The Jews, of course, had the Prophets, but the Gentiles never had that blessing. It also does not fit with Corporate Israel, unless you expect the Jewish people to be the saviors of the world one day.

Thirdly, the Redeemer of Israel is identified many times, for example:

Isa 48:12-17 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. (13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. (14) All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. (15) I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. (16) Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (17) Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Here the Redeemer, who is also God, sent from “the lord GOD, and His Spirit,” promises to save Israel. Just a few chapters later, a suffering redeemer is predicted in 53. This same redeemer is also a conqueror.

The Jews read all sorts of weird things into the scriptures, but this is the most natural understanding of Isaiah.


165 posted on 08/13/2012 1:09:21 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: RaisingCain; blasater1960

I think all will agree that G-d does not change...

Malachi 3:6
“I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

This would mean G-d’s Law for Mankind does not change which is *Torah*

and G-d’s Law for the Universe does not change....

The Sun still rises and goes down the same way it always has.

However: G-d is greater than the Angels he created, the fact that Angels can transform into the Physical World would mean G-d could do that as well, I am not saying he did rather that he could, because the Angels are not greater than the Creator who created them....


167 posted on 08/13/2012 1:19:58 PM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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