Posted on 07/10/2012 9:21:34 PM PDT by ReformationFan
An atheist has called out a Christian pastor for ignoring Bible passages condemning homosexuality to argue that gays can go to heaven.
"If Christians support that (putting LGBT individuals on equal footing), that's great, but it's going to happen in spite of what the Bible says, not because of it," said Hemant Mehta, also known as the Friendly Atheist, in a recent blog post.
Mehta was referring to commentary written by Pastor Craig Gross, founder of XXXchurch.com. Gross suggested that there will be gays in heaven just as there will be fat people and other sinners.
"Why do they (religious folks) believe that the gay guy goes to hell but the fat preacher who builds some of the largest churches in the world makes it to heaven?" he posed in his commentary.
"God loves gays and Jesus is for them. God loves the fat preacher. Homosexual activity and overeating are both sins – just like speeding, gossip, lying and cheating," Gross continued. "All are forgivable in Christ and, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, can be changed. Just remember that change does not happen overnight.
"When it comes to the Lord, it's nothing less than a journey of sanctification. And wherever you are at on that journey, I think there should be a place for you at church. Because there's probably one in heaven."
Mehta, author of I Sold My Soul on eBay, doesn't accept Gross' argument. While Gross quoted the Bible to make his case, Mehta couldn't get past the fact that the XXXchurch.com pastor missed the verses in Scripture that seem to undermine his argument.
The atheist pointed specifically to 1 Cor. 6:9-10: "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
"[T]he Bible talks about how gay men (who don't change their ways) will most certainly NOT go to Heaven, directly contradicting what Gross writes in the rest of his essay," the Friendly Atheist pointed out.
Mehta told The Christian Post that while he applauds Christians who support the LGBT community, he says such believers can only do so by "taking a non-literal interpretation of the Bible" or by ignoring certain Bible passages.
"But it seems very hypocritical to me when a liberal Christian says the Bible is God's Word... but then simply ignores the verses that say untrue or un-politically-correct things," he said in an email to CP. "It's either God's Word or it's not. As an atheist, I believe it's not."
Gross, whose ministry helps those addicted to pornography, affirms that homosexuality is a sin but he told The Christian Post that "gays, fat people, addicts, murderers, all can get into heaven if they accept Christ."
"If you know Christ you go to heaven. If you know Christ and [you're] fat you still get in right?"
"He came to give us all life that none should perish," he stressed. "Coming to Christ does not mean all your struggles disappear."
But Matt Moore, a 23-year-old Christian blogger who struggles with homosexual temptations but chooses not to act on them, doesn't believe the grace of God covers the lifestyle of unrepentant, active sinful behavior.
He cited 1 John 3:4-6, among other passages: "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."
"This all ultimately comes back to the question, what is the Christian life supposed to look like? The Scriptures are clear that those who are legitimate Children of God are radically transformed," said Moore. "They live a life of faith, in continual repentance from sin and they grow in holiness. But many voices from within the Church deny these truths by saying a simple profession of faith with the mouth is all it takes to be saved…… again, this sounds great, but not true. There is such thing as vain faith, and it will not save."
For Gross, he believes that churches need to approach the issue differently altogether.
"Jesus came for the sick not the healthy. Churches should be hospitals and not country clubs," he stated in an email to CP.
"The deal is we don't have doctors leading our hospitals; we have [fallen] patients who ... need ... help and that should be the mentality of our pastors that they don't have all the answers or problems solved either."
“doesn’t believe the grace of God covers the lifestyle of unrepentant, active sinful behavior. “
That is the key. The faith that appropriates justification is one that effects the “obedience of faith” towards its Object, the Lord Jesus (correspondent to light and grace given), and which includes repentance when convicted of not doing so.
And contrary to a common Catholic contruance, Reformers preached strongly that the faith that saves is the kind that effects works: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Reformation_faith_works.html
And while any sin makes you a sinner and in need of salvation, there are types and degrees of sin. Thus one who engages in calculated cold blooded murder is not judged the same way as one who sometimes struggles with frustration when his computer will not respond as it should. One is rejecting the grace of God, the other is missing it.
“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: “ (Colossians 3:5-10)
Still in much need of growth in grace myself.
The assumption there is that sexual misbehaviour is worse in God’s sight than gluttony or wilfully putting other people’s lives at risk to sate a selfish desire to save time or for an adrenalin-rush. I wouldn’t presume to know how (or even if) God “grades” sins that way. The only sin that is specified as being the worse is the sin against the Holy Spirit.
He is actually correct on this point. He thinks he is backing us Christians into an untenable position, it is not untenable to me.
Gross doesn't seem to have said that
As per the article, Gross said "God loves gays and Jesus is for them. God loves the fat preacher. Homosexual activity and overeating are both sins – just like speeding, gossip, lying and cheating," Gross continued. "All are forgivable in Christ and, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, can be changed. Just remember that change does not happen overnight.
"can be changed". Perhaps Gross means repentent homosexuals who "go and sin no more" -- in that case, he is theologically correct
he’s backing “faux Christians” who think one can die a PRACTISING, un-repentent homosexual and go to heaven into an untenable position
Here is the danger. Christ loves us and desires everyone to be saved. It is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast in it.
There are those who believe they are saved but continue in sin so that grace can abound. It’s unlikely those people are saved because the arrogance of their hearts prevents them from recognizing their sin as sin and asking for forgiveness.
On the other hand, there are those who deny faith by making salvation a matter of practicing laws rather than desiring the grace of Christ. It’s unlikely these people are saved because they fail to grasp that salvation is not a 12-step plan but an intimate, personal conversion of the heart by the Holy Spirit.
We’re saved by faith in Christ, not works and yet by your fruit are you known so the Christian life is one of faith despite our sin but also good works as the by-product of that faith. If you’re not producing the fruit of the Spirit, you’re missing out on what Christ wants of you and you should re-examine yourself and ask again for forgiveness.
Christ will judge the one who continues in their own unrepentant sin and will judge the one who believes they have no sin in them equally and what He does with their souls, that is His to decide. But the only true way to know you are saved is to humbly recognize and confess your sin before God, repent so as to extract the sin from our lives and bear fruit as evidence of God’s work. That’s an intimate, personal relationship that is available to everyone regardless of denomination but is difficult without an understanding of what God wants and a desire to do His will.
Ya'll write this down:
On July 11, 2012 at 14:05 Eastern Time, Gamecock and Cronos agreed on something.
Indeed. It’s not untenable to me either.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20timothy%203:16-17&version=AMP
“Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Gross suggested that there will be gays in heaven just as there will be fat people and other sinners.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say being fat or overeating is a sin. I have just finished reading the Pentateuch (The first five books of the Bible that contain the Law) again and let me tell you-—NOTHING in there CONDEMNS overeating as a sin. Whereas homosexuality is covered, murder, etc, overeating is not. So, where do we get this idea of gluttony as a sin? From the deadly seven sins, which a theologian drew up.
Not gonna lie, I’m offended by the implication that I’m a sinner BECAUSE I’m overweight. Trust me, I’m a sinner for lots of reasons but being pudgy is not one of them. I’m not advocating overeating, since it’s not terribly good for you, but it is NOT a sin. And I’m doubly offended that being fat is lumped in with being homosexual!
Okay, I may have a bit of a chip on my shoulder, but seriously...
There’s gonna be a helluva LOT of surprised people on Judgment Day!
where do we get this idea of gluttony as a sin?
Proverbs 23:20-21
Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.
Philippians 3:18-19
For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
Deuteronomy 21:20
And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
So in a restored earthly Israel, it will be true that "neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and thieves do not break through, nor steal" as Jesus said of the heaven in which we should "lay up to yourselves treasures" in Matthew 6:20?
Proverbs 23:20-21
Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.
This is a piece of wisdom from Solomon. It says that if you spend all of your money on wine or food and things just to please your belly, your finances are going to suffer. If it was a condemnation of overeating, and calling gluttony the sin, it would reference Sheol or some other similar notion.
Philippians 3:18-19
For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
This does not refer to eating at all. The reference to the belly means that the sinner in question values their own physical needs more than their salvation.
Deuteronomy 21:20
And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
The issue is that the son is rebelling against his parents by ignoring them and instead sitting around, eating, and getting drunk—not because he had an extra helping of mashed potatoes.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
This is out of context. This passage is about divisions in the church.
When Gross said that there will be homosexuals in heaven just as there will be overweight people, then I have to disagree. Sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God. As you stated, "Go and sin no more." implies precisely that-we're not to sin. That's not to say that we won't sin but if a homosexual is truly saved he will want to be delivered from this sinful behavior just as much as a crook would want to be delivered from stealing or a liar from lying (lawyers, hedge fund operators, and members of the MSM are an exception).
R-F is correct that this atheist seems to have a better handle on theology than this Christian. Why am I not surprised.
This does not refer to eating at all. The reference to the belly means that the sinner in question values their own physical needs more than their salvation.
And gluttony is an instance of that.
Deuteronomy 21:20
And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
The issue is that the son is rebelling against his parents by ignoring them and instead sitting around, eating, and getting drunk—not because he had an extra helping of mashed potatoes.
The parents are presented as righteous in having told their son not to be gluttonous.
Proverbs 23:2
Put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony.
(Fraud is fraud is fraud is fraud.)
Do you dispute the accuracy of these claims that Forgione faked it?
FROM INTERNET RESEARCH:
Italian saint Padre Pio reportedly used carbolic acid on his hands, feet and sides to “self-inflict” the wounds Christ endured during the crucifixion, according to a book by professor Sergio Luzzatto.
In his award-winning account dubbed Padre Pio: Miracles and Politics in a Secular Age, the historian describes correspondence between Padre Pio and his pharmacist that suggest the saint used acid to mimic stigmata wounds, according to The Sun.
Padre Pio is a popular saint among Italians, and a survey conducted around 2007 revealed “more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary,” according to The Telegraph. In his book, Luzzatto suggests the Vatican succumbed to public pressure to canonize the popular priest.
In an earlier book, The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, Luzzatto examined the same documents found the Vatican archive, but his claims were dismissed in 2007 by the Catholic Anti-Defamation League, according to The Telegragh.
Born Francesco Forgione, Padre Pio was canonized as a saint by Pope John Paul II in 2002, but not before two previous popes had debated the validity of Padre Pio’s wounds, The Montreal Gazette reported.
Yes.
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