The Big Discovery [by David, former Presbyterian]

Journeyof ImperfectSaint.blogspot.com ^ | October 4, 2009 | David

[Salvation]

Sunday, October 4, 2009

The Big Discovery

        I made some good friends outside my church and found out that they were all Catholics.  Now, I did not know much about Catholicism at the time.  By the way, the Mass did seem somewhat mysterious to me externally.  In fact, what little I had heard from other church members was all negative.  There was a Mrs. J at my church, who had just retired from her missionary post in China.  She was such a kind and endearing soul to all.  One day she got back from visiting someone at a hospital and looked extremely sad and disturbed.  It turned out that when she got to the hospital room, she saw that a Catholic priest was already there with the patient.  Now the question was if the patient would ever get to heaven. 

 

        Nevertheless, my Catholic friends all looked quite normal and happy.  Then could the Catholic Church, the largest church in the the world, be in error?  It so happened that at that time I was also beginning to question my Protestant faith.  The fact that there were numerous different denominations around the world bothered me.  Also, as a Protestant, whether you're a minister or lay person, you are free to marry and divorce any number of times.  It's hard to see that Jesus would be happy with these two facts.  Since I am the kind of person who always likes to find the answer to any question that's important, I decided to look into Catholicism.

 

        I made up my mind not to talk to anyone about my investigation.  I was single then and had a lot of free time to myself.  The local public library housed an excellent collection of books on Catholicism, so I started borrowing books on the subject.  I read every weekend, even taking notes as I read.  The went on for over a year.  I read all those books that viciously attack the Catholic Church too, but somehow they did not affect me much because I sensed that these attacks could not have been prompted by the Holy Spirit.  The books that really helped me were the ones on early Church history.  I could see that the continuity was there and the beliefs and practices of the early Church had been preserved to this day in the Catholic Church.  The only conclusion I could come to was that the Catholic Church was indeed the church Jesus had come and established.  Like Christ himself, the Church, being his body, must be accepted (or rejected) totally, with no middle ground. 

 

        Here's some advice for those who seek the truth.  Your chances of success will greatly improve if, first, you start out with a completely open mind and secondly, go to the source(s) directly to get the facts.  Many who misunderstand the Catholic Church today have already made up their mind that the Church is wrong, thus never bothering to pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what the Church really teaches.  This is being close-minded. 

[metmom]

Then why the constant lack of respect and the twaddle condemning Catholics because of Catholicism?

And I've condemned Catholics instead of Catholicism where exactly?

It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

Physician, heal thyself.

[Natural Law]

"Bigamy is also a crime and the marriage is already not recognized by civil authorities. It doesn't take an annulment to admit that."

Catholicism is a global religion with members in every country and culture. The problems and issues are not limited to the inconveniences of your white bread community. More than a few priests and prospective spouses have been bamboozled in the premarriage counseling.

Polygamous marriages are recognized civilly in nearly fifty countries and even where illegal still occur. A civil recognition of an invalid marriage does not nullify it in the Church.

Historically there have been marriage contracts involving children. They are still common in India, Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, in many parts of Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia and often are done against the will of the women and often involve threats and coercion. Unless you are advocating the use of water-boarding and polygraphs errors are going to be made. When errant marriages have been performed the Church has an obligation and a process to recognize the error.

Peace be with you

[papertyger]

God is obliged to follow the whims of mere sinful, easily corruptible man. Imagine that.

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. -John 20:23 (KJV)

This would be much easier if you didn't treat the Bible like a tray of hor' dourves.

[boatbums]

As long as a suitable excuse is provided, an annulment is a given which permits remarriage IN the church and that definitely is NOT following the stated dogmas of the Church

If a "suitable excuse is provided" who are you to invalidate it?

Cool your jets! The point is that what the Catholic Church has done in practice goes against what "she" claims in doctrine. If indeed the Catholic Church follows the same faith that the Apostles did, then it is fair to question how they actually perform in reality. The reason people bring up the "Ted Kennedy" issue is he was a well known, wealthy politician who made his Roman Catholic faith a part of his persona. When he was known as a philanderer and drunkard, among other failures of character, and he divorced his wife of 24 years with three children, he then decided he wanted to get remarried in the Catholic Church to his new honey, who was also Catholic. Canon law denies both the right to a Catholic marriage as well as receiving of the Eucharist to a divorced person who remarries - since the new marriage is seen as adultery in the eyes of the Church as the first marriage is still binding. The only option he had was to get an "official" annulment and the grounds were he did not enter the marriage with the intent to be faithful. That the Church granted an annulment as well as the new marriage on those grounds is an awful example to the world of how the Church views the marriage vows and it appears that money and fame can get you anything you want. THAT, my FRiend, is what I criticize and I have every right to. It is hardly been the exception as divorce among Catholics is no less rare than other religious groups.

[boatbums]

The Nature of God, as in the Holy Trinity including the Nature of Jesus as True God and True Man

The Passion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

The Assumption of Mary

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

Papal Infallibility regarding matters of faith and morals.

Interesting. Of the seven listed "MUST" be believed dogmas, I find only TWO that are proved by Holy Scripture. The others are not. Even of the ones that are Scriptural, there are differences in how they are interpreted. For example, "The Passion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus". It does no good to believe Jesus suffered and died on the cross and was raised again - even the demons believe that - without believing that He suffered and died for our sins and was raised for our justification. It is only by faith in the sacrifice of Christ for us that we can be saved - eternal life is the gift of God and we acquire that gift through faith. The Marian dogmas as well as Papal infallibility are NOT anywhere noted in Scripture to be believed to have eternal life nor were they Apostolic teachings. Even when they can narrow them down to seven - out of the hundreds others include - they are NOT salvific doctrines. That tells me a lot and reconfirms my decision to leave the false teachings of man-made religion for true, genuine Christianity.

[Salvation]

I believe you are just pecking at the surface here with this short list. Check out some of these links -- a lot more beliefs (dogmas, doctrines) than you would think.

And the thing is that most Christians believe them too!

Does Dogma Evolve?

Dogmas of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] Our Lady and Dogmas: Pondering the Assumption (Launch of Rosary Crusade)
[CATHOLIC/FRIENDS CAUCUS] This dogmatic denunciation of dogma sponsored by a disorganized...
Preserved Sinless from the Moment of Humanity (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception) [Catholic Caucus]
The Decline of Dogma and the Decline of Church Membership
The Three D's -- Dogma, Doctrine and Discipline [Ecumenical]
Radio Replies First Volume - Dogma and reason
Radio Replies First Volume - Development of dogma
Docility (on Catholic dogma and infallibility)
Ineffabilis Deus: 8 December 1854 (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

[verga]

I don't think man is capable of understanding how God *sees* time. Times and seasons are mentioned in Scripture. Jesus came in the fullness of time. If time were all happening at once, there could be no fullness of time.

What could be more full than experiencing all of time at once. I do understand that what I tried to explain is a very difficult and deep concept and I only gave the "Readers Digest" version, but it is in fact the truth.

[verga]

Not really, having never been exposed to one before.

Seriously, you really expect someone to believe this? Every Sunday in Mass you heard The first reading from the OT, a Psalm which you were expected to respond to, The second Reading from the NT, followed by a reading from the Gospel, with a homily drawing the three readings together. During the Consecration, you heard the exact words that Jesus used at the last supper.

[verga]

I didn’t ask about sacraments. I didn’t ask about marriage, Catholic or otherwise. Would it make it easier for you to understand if I call it “unlife?” Are murder and natural death morally equal since they both result in unlife?

RFEngineer is going to keep dodging the question. He knows he is wrong but is to proud to admit his error.

[verga]

Of course you ignore the fact that the vast majority of annulments are really divorces by another name.

And based on your extensive examination of every annulment case and complete understanding of the Catholic Religion you make this case.

Of course you ignore the fact that Marriage is viewed as a Sacrament in the Catholic Church and forms a covenant relationship, while the "Civil" aspect is for purposes of property rights.

You also of course realize that it is the intent of BOTH parties at the time of the marriage that determines the validity of the reception of the sacrament.

I mean seriously as such an expert on the Catholic Church you do understand all of these things. (I hope I don't have to put a /Sarc tag on this for RFEngineer)

[RFEngineer]

“RFEngineer is going to keep dodging the question. He knows he is wrong but is to proud to admit his error.”

I don’t follow red herrings. When I’m presented with an apt analogy, I’ll be happy to address it.

Of course, I could simply whine that you’re making it personal, but I AM too proud to do that.

[RFEngineer]

“You also of course realize that it is the intent of BOTH parties at the time of the marriage that determines the validity of the reception of the sacrament.”

Of course, I realize this. So does everyone. What is disingenuous is when Catholics want a divorce and remain in the church - and lie - claiming after the fact - that they were not intent on receiving the sacrament.

“I mean seriously as such an expert on the Catholic Church you do understand all of these things. (I hope I don’t have to put a /Sarc tag on this for RFEngineer)”

Apparently too many Catholics don’t take their religion seriously enough and allow this abuse of Church annulments to happen all to frequently.

How is it that this Protestant can see that and such devout and serious Catholics such as those on this thread cannot?

I guess I have more reverence for the actual intent of marriage in the Catholic church than most Catholics on this thread. Unlike those complaining about me - I actually respect the Catholic view on this subject - and the Catholic church would be much better off if so many Catholics did not make excuses for the annulments of the Kennedy-Gingrich convenience variety. Catholics might even gain converts by upholding traditional Catholic values rather than trying to accommodate Western lifestyles that too often include serial sacramental ceremonies of marriage within the Catholic church.

[Iscool]

So Kennedy’s wife was granted a divorce because Kennedy committed adultery and your religion gives him an annulment because he later told your religion that he knew from the get go that he couldn’t be faithful???

The Catholic wife then is in a pretty poor position...She was never legitimately married then but lived a life of sin creating a whole house full of kids...

What woman with kids would even consider getting a Catholic annulment??? And what about Kennedy...He created a herd of kids out of wedlock...

Let’s not forget, annulment means ‘never legitimately married’...

One word comes to mind...Fraud...I don’t know how you guys can discuss annulment with each other without breaking out into hilarious laughter...

[Iscool]

Can your relgion annul a marriage when there has not been a divorce decreed???

[metmom]

What could be more full than experiencing all of time at once.

God is outside of time. He can look into it at anay point from which He chooses but that does not mean God *experiences* time.

And it does not mean what Jesus experienced while in time is what He is experiencing outside of time.

Scripture tells us and is quite clear that outside of time, in eternity, Jesus is seated at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for us.

He is not eternally dying because there is no value in the dying but in the death.

Suffering does not redeem or pay for sins, shedding of blood does.

Suffering teaches us but does not pay for sin.

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Romans 5:3-5 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Hebrews 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

[metmom]

Ouch.....

Think any of them will get it?

[Iscool]

People who trust Christ alone for salvation and not their church are saved no matter what church they go to or if they even go at all.

That's Bible 101...Saved people were added to the church...No one did or could become a member of the Body of Christ without first being saved...As a result, there are no unsaved people in the 'church'...

And as you say, the church is not an organization...The church is an organism...

[verga]

I really feel sorry for you.
You have been taught the truth and reject it.

[metmom]

God's word is the truth and I do not reject it.

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Truth is not relative and is not subject to change. If someone changes it, it's no longer true.

Catholic doctrine has changed much over the years, often teaching contradictory things. Both CANNOT be true.

[daniel1212]

Interesting. Of the seven listed "MUST" be believed dogmas, I find only TWO that are proved by Holy Scripture. The others are not.

That is because it is not needful due to the last stated binding doctrine, "Papal Infallibility regarding matters of faith and morals". Which extends to ecumenical councils making universal F+M definitions in union with the pope, and by which she infallibly defined herself infallible, and thus the RC has assurance of this and all its thusly declares.