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To: papertyger

So Kennedy’s wife was granted a divorce because Kennedy committed adultery and your religion gives him an annulment because he later told your religion that he knew from the get go that he couldn’t be faithful???

The Catholic wife then is in a pretty poor position...She was never legitimately married then but lived a life of sin creating a whole house full of kids...

What woman with kids would even consider getting a Catholic annulment??? And what about Kennedy...He created a herd of kids out of wedlock...

Let’s not forget, annulment means ‘never legitimately married’...

One word comes to mind...Fraud...I don’t know how you guys can discuss annulment with each other without breaking out into hilarious laughter...


233 posted on 06/06/2012 5:57:19 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool
So Kennedy’s wife was granted a divorce because Kennedy committed adultery and your religion gives him an annulment because he later told your religion that he knew from the get go that he couldn’t be faithful???

What would you suggest be done, considering the annulment was granted ten years after the divorce and Joan didn't oppose it?

Besides, it's not like Catholics have exactly cornered the market where frauds are concerned.

244 posted on 06/06/2012 1:33:31 PM PDT by papertyger ("And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if..."))
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To: Iscool; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; Quix; smvoice
And what should be considered is that given the thousands of annulment based on the wide criteria (psychological abnormality, stubbornness, “Pauline privilege”, etc.,) and application of such, especially as understood in America, then multitudes of married Catholics may actually be not married.

And though i am hesitant to utterly disallow any extreme circumstances as possibly allowing grounds for anulment, yet in the Bible, although marriage as a commitment and social contract was generally understood, once a wife was taken — even foreign wives, or out lust, or even instead of the one contracted for, etc. — and the marriage was consummated, then such were considered to be married, and in no place are consummated marriages “annulled,” meaning they did not exist. Even concubines were wives. (Gn. 25:1; cf. 1Ch. 1:32; Gn. 30:4; cf. Gn. 35:22; 2Sam. 16:21, 22, cf. 2Sam. 20:3)

As regard the criteria for annulments:

MATRIMONIAL CONSENT

Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:

1/ those who lack the sufficient use of reason;

2/ those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;

3/ those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature [all are judgment calls which can see varying verdicts].

List of diriment impediments to marriage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_impediment#List_of_diriment_impediments_to_marriage

Also, http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P3Z.HTM:

Catholic Diocese of Arlington

What are some possible grounds for annulment?

Among the signs that might indicate reasons to investigate for an annulment are: marriage that excluded at the time of the wedding the right to children, or to a permanent marriage, or to an exclusive commitment. In addition, there are youthful marriages; marriages of very short duration; marriages marked by serious emotional, physical, or substance abuse; deviant sexual practices; profound and consistent irresponsibility and lack of commitment; conditional consent to a marriage; fraud or deceit to elicit spousal consent; serious mental illness; or a previous bond of marriage. The determination of the ground should be made after extensive consultation with the parish priest or deacons, and based upon the proofs that are available. http://www.arlingtondiocese.org/tribunal/faq.php#Grounds

Alsp see http://www.americancatholic.org/newsletters/cu/ac1002.asp

The annulment crisis in the Church

By Fr. Leonard Kennedy

Divorce
Church : Divorce

The annulment crisis in the Church
By Fr. Leonard Kennedy
Issue: March 1999 [excerpt]

   

Review Article:

Robert H. Vasoli, What God has joined together (Oxford University Press, 1998, 252 pages, hardcover, $40 Canadian).

Annulments booming
The United States has 6% of the world's Catholics but grants 78% percent of the world's annulments. In 1968 the Church there granted fewer than 600 annulments; from 1984 to 1994 it granted just under 59,000 annually. But more than 90% of the cases which were appealed to the highest matrimonial court, the Roman Rota, were overturned.

The author gives several reasons for the incredible growth in American annulments;

1. There is advertising in church bulletins, Catholic newspapers, and even the secular press, that annulments are available, sometimes with a suggested guarantee that they will be granted. "Some invitations practically promise an annulment to all who apply. The promotional efforts . . . may evoke responses from . . . spouses who dream of greener marital pastures but would not seriously consider separation and divorce were annulment not presented as a convenient and acceptable alternative."

One brochure said: "Usually once a request for annulment is accepted, a favorable decision is given. However, a careful review is made before a request is accepted . . . . A ëfavorable' decision is synonymous with annulment; evidently upholding the validity of marriage is ëunfavorable.'"

2. Most petitions are presented to judges without proper screening. "No fewer than 66 of the 165 diocesan and archdiocesan tribunals . . . decided to go to trial with every petition presented."

3. A high percentage of cases that are tried end in a declaration of nullity. From 1984 to 1994 it was 97% for First Instance trials. All cases however have to have a second trial. The percentage of decisions overturned in the United States is 4/10 of 1%. "What the picture reveals is that mandatory review, and appeals leading to retrials at Second Instance, have done very little to tarnish America's reputation as the annulment capital of the universe."

4. Many matrimonial judges are not well qualified for their work, lacking a doctorate or a licentiate in canon law. Sometimes judges of the First Instance are also judges (on other cases) of the Second Instance, which is not good practice. Three judges are recommended for trials, but most often there is only one (which is allowed with permission).

5. "In practice . . . many if not most tribunal experts seldom conduct a direct, face-to-face examination of either spouse." "Cases have come to my attention where the expert . . . arrived at a diagnosis of defective consent solely by means of a telephone conversation with a tribunal judge . . . . In most judicial systems, attempts to introduce into evidence expert diagnosis of that nature would be laughed out of court."

6.Sometimes the Defender of the Bond does not have a canon law degree and his opinion can be easily overruled by a highly trained judge.

7.Respondents are usually not fully informed of all their options.

8.Rather than considering the detrimental effect on respect for the sacrament of marriage which is caused by the scandal of almost automatic annulment, and the cynicism produced in some of the parties to an annulment and in Catholics generally, those handling the annulments concentrate on sympathy for their clients, or often just for the one initiating the annulment.

9.Theologians argue that in certain papal documents, such as Gaudium et spes and Casti Connubii, the Church has changed the definition of marriage. This argument is fallacious.

10.Many judges think that, if a marriage is not an ideal one, it is not a valid marriage at all, and that therefore an annulment should be granted to any marriage that has broken up.

11.68% of annulments today are granted because of "defective consent," which involves at least one of the parties not having sufficient knowledge or maturity to know what was involved in marriage. The ingenuity of judges in confidently asserting that such knowledge or maturity was lacking is amazing. Vasoli says that it is done by substituting "junk psychology" for sound psychology and psychiatry. He quotes the statement of one matrimonial judge: "There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid."

http://www.catholicinsight.com/online/church/divorce/c_annul.shtml

Also see A Canadian Respondent's experience of success with the Annulment process

http://www.saveoursacrament.org/Canada.html

It is also noteworthy that while in principal that Rome considers entering marriage with the intention of never having children to be a "grave wrong and more than likely grounds for an annulment."[25] , while praying to a women who apparently went thru with a marriage intending to do just that, according to some Roman apologetics.

In addition is the extreme views by of certain church “father's” on marriage, and problematic reasoning behind some of it, which is another topic.

248 posted on 06/06/2012 3:27:50 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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