The Big Discovery [by David, former Presbyterian]

Journeyof ImperfectSaint.blogspot.com ^ | October 4, 2009 | David

[Salvation]

Sunday, October 4, 2009

The Big Discovery

        I made some good friends outside my church and found out that they were all Catholics.  Now, I did not know much about Catholicism at the time.  By the way, the Mass did seem somewhat mysterious to me externally.  In fact, what little I had heard from other church members was all negative.  There was a Mrs. J at my church, who had just retired from her missionary post in China.  She was such a kind and endearing soul to all.  One day she got back from visiting someone at a hospital and looked extremely sad and disturbed.  It turned out that when she got to the hospital room, she saw that a Catholic priest was already there with the patient.  Now the question was if the patient would ever get to heaven. 

 

        Nevertheless, my Catholic friends all looked quite normal and happy.  Then could the Catholic Church, the largest church in the the world, be in error?  It so happened that at that time I was also beginning to question my Protestant faith.  The fact that there were numerous different denominations around the world bothered me.  Also, as a Protestant, whether you're a minister or lay person, you are free to marry and divorce any number of times.  It's hard to see that Jesus would be happy with these two facts.  Since I am the kind of person who always likes to find the answer to any question that's important, I decided to look into Catholicism.

 

        I made up my mind not to talk to anyone about my investigation.  I was single then and had a lot of free time to myself.  The local public library housed an excellent collection of books on Catholicism, so I started borrowing books on the subject.  I read every weekend, even taking notes as I read.  The went on for over a year.  I read all those books that viciously attack the Catholic Church too, but somehow they did not affect me much because I sensed that these attacks could not have been prompted by the Holy Spirit.  The books that really helped me were the ones on early Church history.  I could see that the continuity was there and the beliefs and practices of the early Church had been preserved to this day in the Catholic Church.  The only conclusion I could come to was that the Catholic Church was indeed the church Jesus had come and established.  Like Christ himself, the Church, being his body, must be accepted (or rejected) totally, with no middle ground. 

 

        Here's some advice for those who seek the truth.  Your chances of success will greatly improve if, first, you start out with a completely open mind and secondly, go to the source(s) directly to get the facts.  Many who misunderstand the Catholic Church today have already made up their mind that the Church is wrong, thus never bothering to pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what the Church really teaches.  This is being close-minded. 

[metmom]

Thanks for that very enlightening discourse.

[verga]

And the few Scripture passages I'd heard at (the Catholic) church, suddenly took on new meaning as the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and heart further.

I love when ex-Catholics say this, I really have to laugh, becasue it tells me they just never listened.

Greeting Priest: In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:13)

People: And also with you.

Liturgy of the Word

Penitential Rite

All: I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. (Jas. 5:16) In my thoughts and in my words, (Rom. 12:16) In what I have done and what I have failed to do; (Jas 3:6) and I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angel and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. (1 Thess 5:25)

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

All: Lord have mercy. (Tb 8:4) Christ have mercy. (1 Tim 1:2) Lord have mercy.

Gloria

All: Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth. (Luke 2:14) Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father, (Rev 19:6) we worship you, (Rev. 22:9) we give you thanks, (Eph. 5:20) we praise you for your glory. (Rev 7:12) Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, (2 John 3) Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us; (John 1:29) You are seated at the right hand of the Father, receive our prayer. (Rom 8:34) For you alone are the Holy One, (Luke 4:34) You alone are Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ. (Luke 1:32) with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. (John 14:26)

[The Liturgy of the Word consists of four readings from Scripture: the first is typically from the Old Testament, the second a psalm, followed by a reading from one of the epistles. Finally, the Gospel is proclaimed during which the people stand out of respect for the Word. The chosen readings change daily.]

A Sermon on the readings follows.

(2 Tim 4:1-2) Profession of Faith

All: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16) We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through him all things were made. (John 1:2-3) For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:16) he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4) He ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1) and his kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33) We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11) We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen

Liturgy of the Eucharist

[The gifts are brought to the altar. These include the bread and wine and the offering collected from the people.] (Malachi 3:10)

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13) It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35) People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18)

People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)

Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28) People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his Church. (Ps 50:23)

Eucharistic Prayers

Priest: Lift up your hearts.

People: We lift them up to the Lord. (Lam 3:41)

Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord Our God. (Col 3:17)

People: It is right to give him thanks and praise. (Col 1:3)

Preface Acclamation

All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might, heaven and earth are full of your glory. (Is 6:3) Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. (Mark 11:9-10)

Eucharistic prayer

[There are four of these, based on ancient prayers of the Church. Eucharistic Prayer Two follows as an example:]

Priest: Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. (2 Macc. 14:36) Let your spirit come upon these gifts (water and wine) to make them holy, so that they may become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Before he was given up to death, (Phil 2:8) a death he freely accepted, (John 10:17-18) he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this is memory of me. (Mark 14:22-25) Let us proclaim the mystery of faith.

All: Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life, Lord Jesus, come in glory. (Heb 2:14-15)

Priest: In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. (John 6:51) We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.10:17) Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love together with our Pope and our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again: bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. (2 Macc 12:45-46) Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages. May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory though your Son, Jesus Christ. (2 Thes 1:4-5) Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.

All: Amen. (Rom 11:36)

Communion Rite

The Lord's Prayer: All: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Matt 6:9-13)

Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our savior, Jesus Christ. (John 17:15) All: For the kingdom the power and the glory are yours, now and forever. Amen

Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles; I leave you peace, my peace I give to you. (John 14:27) Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live forever and ever.

Priest: The peace of the Lord be with you always! (John 20:19)

People: And also with you!

[The priest then directs the people to exchange a sign, such as a handshake or a kiss, or a word of God's peace to one another.]

Breaking of the Bread

All: Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace. (John 1:29)

Communion

Priest: This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper. (Rev. 19:9)

People: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed. (Matt 8:8) [Communion is distributed to the faithful at the altar by the priest and lay ministers.] Dismissal Priest: Blessed be the name of the Lord. Now and forever. (Dan 2:20) May almighty God bless you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:51) Go in peace (Luke 7:50) to love and serve the Lord. (2 Chr 35:3)

[During the blessing the people make the Sign of the Cross, the traditional sign of the baptized and a public sign of their belief in the power of God.]

People: Thanks be to God. (2 Cor 9:15)

[metmom]

If there were even Scripture quoted in the mass , it might have helped. Below is a list of what Scripture you claim is read/quoted in the mass along with the actual passages quoted out of the Bible.

I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. (Jas. 5:16) - James 5:16 quoted actually says....Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

In my thoughts and in my words, (Rom. 12:16) - Being of one mind one towards another. Not minding high things, but consenting to the humble. Be not wise in your own conceits

In what I have done and what I have failed to do; (Jas 3:6) - And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is placed among our members, which defileth the whole body, and inflameth the wheel of our nativity, being set on fire by hell.

and I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angel and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. (1 Thess 5:25) - Brethren, pray for us.

May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9) - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

Christ have mercy. (1 Tim 1:2) - To Timothy, his beloved son in faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord.

Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth. (Luke 2:14) - Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will.

Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father, (Rev 19:6) - And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of great thunders, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord our God the Almighty hath reigned.

we worship you, (Rev. 22:9) - And he said to me: See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them that keep the words of the prophecy of this book. Adore God.

we give you thanks, (Eph. 5:20) - Giving thanks always for all things, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to God and the Father:

we praise you for your glory. (Rev 7:12) - Saying: Amen. Benediction, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, honour, and power, and strength to our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, (2 John 3) - No such reference

Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us; (John 1:29) - The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

The claim that Scripture is read/given in the mass is a total joke. Taking fragments of Scripture, rewording them, and stringing them together to make sentences is not reading Scripture in mass.

I could have gone on and finished with the rest of it but I seriously doubt that the rest of that is any closer to the quoting of actual Scripture verses than what's been posted already.

Although I do like this clincher......

You are seated at the right hand of the Father, receive our prayer. (Rom 8:34)

Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So much for Jesus being eternally sacrificed in a eternal sacrifice in heaven that the mass is participating in here on earth.

In your own mass, the church itself states that Jesus is in heaven seated at the right hand of God.

[Not gonna take it anymore]

***
If there were even Scripture quoted in the mass , it might have helped.
***
Well I guess you missed this part right here:

[The Liturgy of the Word consists of four readings from Scripture: the first is typically from the Old Testament, the second a psalm, followed by a reading from one of the epistles. Finally, the Gospel is proclaimed during which the people stand out of respect for the Word. The chosen readings change daily.]

A Sermon on the readings follows.

Try reading the whole thing that was posted.

What was the scripture reading this past Sunday?

Deuteronomy 4:32-34, 39-40
Psalm 33
Letter to the Romans 8:14-17
Matthew 28:16-20

What is the scripture for next Sunday?

Exodus 24:3-8
Psalm 116
Hebrews 9:11-15
Mark 14:12-16, 22-26

The readings for the following week are printed in our bulletin so that we can read those ahead as well as the verses or chapters before and after. We also have the daily readings listed in the bulletin.

If a Catholic does not get any bible reading in his/her life it is his/her fault, not the fault of the Church.

[metmom]

If a Catholic does not get any bible reading in his/her life it is his/her fault, not the fault of the Church.

That's right. There's nothing preventing them from cracking open a Bible on their own.

That's why any true believer is in the Word constantly - reading it, memorizing it, meditating on it, living it. We love the word because we love the God who spoke it to us. We love hearing from the God who did so much for us and He speaks to us through it.

Anyone who gets their Bible only from church is missing far more than they realize.

[bkaycee]

I Thank My God that someone in my life showed me the saving Gospel of Grace from the scriptures and that God removed the scales from my eyes and I believed.

I was able to leave the Roman system, By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone.

[metmom]

In Christ alone.......

That says it all.

[Iscool]

And how about these!!! Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13)
Ecc 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

Nothing about anyone offering bread...

It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35)
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Uh, not according to Jesus it won't...

Jesus says HE is the bread...He never told anyone to bake some bread and then Jesus would turn it into him...

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18)
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Now that's not at all what Jesus says or even infers...

You mean to tell me that your priest stands there and tells the congregation things that are completely false???

Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28)
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Maybe you forget...You're not talking to a bunch of Catholics...WE OWN BIBLES...We can and do check your religion out to see if it is telling the truth...

And we can see right here that it is not...

People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his Church. (Ps 50:23)
Psa 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

There is NOTHING in that verse about a sacrifice of bread and wine...And it is directed at individuals, not your Church...

he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this is memory of me. (Mark 14:22-25)

Gave who thanks???

Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Mar 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mar 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Priest: In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. (John 6:51)
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Nobody offers God bread and claims it is Jesus...You don't offer the sacrifice; God offered the sacrifice to you...There is absolutely nothing in what your priest says that references John 6:51...

I love when ex-Catholics say this, I really have to laugh, becasue it tells me they just never listened.

Obviously they did listen...And then they went to God to find out if they were being lied to...And then they left...And more will leave for the same reason...

[lawdave]

meaning that the marriage never happened according to the Catholic church, is that his children, Patrick, Edward, and Kara, were not born of a union recognized by the Catholic Church, i.e., bastards.

The issue of whether a child is a bastard is one of legal recognition, not religious recognition. The annulment of a marriage by the Catholic Church cimply recognizes that the union was not a true marriage as defined by the Church because one or both of the participants did not enter in to it in the correct frame of mind, etc. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the children for legal purposes.

[verga]

I noticed that you have not wanted to take me up on the offer of Tim Staples CD about his conversion from Protestant minister to the Catholic Church. I don't blame you, confronting the truth can be very scary.
and given how you have entrenched yourself in bigotry you are terrified that others will look down on you. If they stop being your friends because you come into the truth they are not your friends and never were.

[metmom]

You mean to tell me that your priest stands there and tells the congregation things that are completely false???

It's there in black and white.

[metmom]

The annulment of a marriage by the Catholic Church cimply recognizes that the union was not a true marriage as defined by the Church because one or both of the participants did not enter in to it in the correct frame of mind, etc.

And just where did God put those conditions on marriage?

Annulment is not Biblical by any stretch of the imagination.

[metmom]

Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28)

And exactly WHY would the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross not be acceptable to God?

It WAS God's idea in the first place.

Jesus said that no man takes His life but that He offers it willingly. Priests speak and act like they are offering Jesus to God as a sacrifice on our behalf begging him to accept Him, as if they're not sure he's not good enough.

There's so much wrong with that picture that it's hard to know where to begin.

[lawdave]

Annulment is not Biblical by any stretch of the imagination.

That is a whole different argument. I was responding to the comment that annulment makes the children of an annulled marriage illegitimate. Divorce is not Biblical either since Jesus said that Moses only allowed the Jews to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. He said it was only allowed for porneia which I believe meant sexual perversion. Even so, the argument could be made that it did not allow remarriage.

Annullment is a recognition by the Church that no sacramental marriage took place. From a protestant view point infant Baptism is invalid because the infant is not making his own conscious choice to accept Christ, etc. Annullment is the same principle - that a person cannot have recieved the sacrament of marriage if they were not making the conscious choice to make the vows required(i.e., like Ted Kennedy never intending to be faithful.)

I assume that a person who "accepts Christ" outwardly with no intent to actually do it inwardly is not saved. Same thing to me.

[Natural Law]

"Annullment is a recognition by the Church that no sacramental marriage took place."

Of course you are right, but you have to remember that you are dealing with people who need only know that a doctrine is Catholic to oppose it. I have had some of these very same people defend their attack on the Church by claiming that the Church must recognize as valid any marriage that was civilly legal and consummated. They even claimed that the Church has no rights and no grounds to nullify marriages to and between children, marriages of close siblings, marriages of the mentally disabled, marriages against the will of either party and polygamy.

It would be hard to keep a straight face when hearing that stuff if this weren't such a grave and serious subject.

Peace be with you.

[Natural Law]

"And how about these!!!"

At lease we have moved past that nonsense about Catholics never reading the Bible or having anything Scriptural in their Liturgy. The new complain now is apparently that we have too much. You ought to see how goofy you guys look from the high ground.

Peace be with you.

[Natural Law]

"Priests speak and act like they are offering Jesus to God as a sacrifice on our behalf begging him to accept Him, as if they're not sure he's not good enough."

I guess you must have ditched Catechism the day they went over this. The priest offers up mere bread and wine and prays that the sacrifice of them is acceptable to God so that it will become, through the miracle of transubstantiation the "Bread of Life" and our "Spiritual Drink". We, the entire congregation, then pray "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of His name, for our good of all of His holy Church.

May you grow in blessings and wisdom. We are clearly not sacrificing Jesus.

[RFEngineer]

“An annulment does not make the children illegitimate. It means the marriage was not a true sacramental marriage.”

Boy, and Protestants get accused of making it up as we go along!

On the issue of divorce/annulment, let’s agree not use the term “divorce” or “annulment” Lets just call it getting “unmarried”

I suspect that Catholics get unmarried about as frequently as non-Catholics, at least in the US.

Unmarriage, or whatever you want to call it is a distinction without a difference - to anyone who is honest about it.

[Natural Law]

"let’s agree not use the term “divorce” or “annulment” Lets just call it getting “unmarried”"

Let's not. Church declarations of nullity have no civil effects and civil divorces have no theological effects. The terms are not interchangeable in any respect.

A marriage once instituted by God can only be dissolved by the death of one of the spouses.

Peace be with you

[lawdave]

Thanks for the support.