Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
Protestants? Legalistic? That accusation coming from a Catholic? Seriously? When was the last time you heard of a Protestant having to go to confession for forgiveness of sins? How many Protestants do you hear make the comment that they don’t know if they lived a pure enough life to enter heaven? When have you heard a Protestant paying or praying for friends in purgatory hoping beyond hope that somehow someone somewhere atones for the sins of those in purgatory? I don’t know what Protestants you’re referring to but they certainly aren’t the Protestants I know.
Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Put that Catholic propaganda that wants to keep you in bondage in the garbage and start getting into scripture to find the true freedom Christ brings.
It’s Catholics who claim Mary is as sinless as Christ was. It’s Catholics who call Mary co-redemtrix along with Christ. Looks to me as if Catholics do indeed make Mary equal to Christ in many things.
It’s no wonder Catholics aren’t sure of their salvation.
It’s Catholics who are forced to suffer the ignorance and foolishness of those who are either too intellectually incapable, too intellectually lazy or are too intellectually dishonest to learn the actual teachings of the Church before spouting off. What it looks like to you is of no consequence. An invalid charge does not warrant a defense, it only deserves a correction.
If you want to know the actual teachings of the Church and cannot locate a suitable, credible source please ask, there are many Catholics that can explain this to you. But if your response will again be "no it doesn't", please save yourself and everyone else involved the time and effort.
May the peace of Christ come upon you.
Catholics are quite sure about what is needed for Salvation. The only uncertainty is in ourselves.
"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38
Peace be with you.
Maybe a hint would be when Jesus told the woman at the well to drink “living water”. John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Like I said, unsure of their salvation.
>>"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38<<
What’s that got to do with salvation? Salvation doesn’t depend on what we do. It depends on what God does in us.
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Paul rebukes Peter for applying rules for salvation.
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Catholics need to renounce the attitude that they can somehow “earn” or “deserve” salvation by something they do. If they don’t they “nullify the grace of God”
So do you deny that Mary was sinless as Christ was? Do you deny that Mary is co-redemtrix?
“I use paper maps.
And guess who never gets lost that way?”
~ ~ ~
I am agreeing...
Yes, friends tell me they got lost using the Internet instruction. It’s worked for me sometimes and few times...no.
Hard to believe, isn't it? Staggering in it's irony.
Catholicism is the epitome of legalism.
Do this. Don't do that.
You have to be baptized to be saved, but that doesn't quite do it.
You also have to take communion to be saved, except that that isn't enough either.
You have to go to confession to be eligible to take communion.
In addition, to be eligible for communion, you also have to do the penance they require of you to show how sorry you are for your sins.
And then communion doesn't quite do it either. You have to do all kinds of charitable works and give money.
But wait a minute, even after jumping through all those hoops, you STILL DON'T KNOW whether you're going to make it or not. You won't find out until you get there and have your good works weighed against the bad and see which you have more of.
Catholicism gives the Pharisees a real run for their money in the legalism department.
Thank God that Christ has set us free from the bondage of the Law.
Isn't forgiveness grand?
Please do not misconstrew Catholic teachings by representing them as you believe them to be. As I have offered before I and any number of other Catechists will assist you in answering your questions and difficulties and explaining them in as much detail as you with, but bleating out misconceptions in the form of a challenge will only detract from the process. And again, if you are only here to mock or ridicule then please don't bother.
Mary was preserved sinless by God, she did not achieve it by herself or embody sinlessness like Jesus, so yours was an apples and oranges question.
Mary is indeed the Co-repemptrix, but is not coequal with God. The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the redeemer". Mary is an important but unequal participant in our redemption by Her cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
Peace be with you.
You are right, Catholicism is not for the dull-witted and lazy.
Peace be with you.
>> Why does Jesus explain to Nicodemus it involves “water and Spirit?”<<
CB said:
Maybe a hint would be when Jesus told the woman at the well to drink “living water”. John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
~ ~ ~
I asked where is the “water” in the Protestant new
definition of “Born Again?” My question wasn’t included
in the quote above. I can see why. Jesus told Nicodemus
the use of water and God’s actions are involved in being
“Born Again” which is Baptism. You don’t “drink” water in Baptism.
Jesus explains the meaning of Born Again in John Chapter 3, again, I have to repeat, Jesus went out and baptized in John 3:22.
John 3:4-5
Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? [5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Relative to this, when asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, then-Cardinal Ratzinger responded that “the response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53).
He went on to say that, “Everything comes from Him [Christ], as their Latter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way. “For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (God and the world: believing and living in our time, by Pope Benedict XVI, Peter Seewald, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000, p. 306 ;http://books.google.com/books?id=M4EO-Zotb4AC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Peter+Seewald+God+and+the+World&hl=en&ei=Jh_LTvSyG8HL0QH5o6En&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-preview-link&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=continuity%20of%20terminology%20with%20the%20language%20of%20Scripture&f=false ^
Concerning the sinless attribution among others, see http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/MarySC.html#Contents
“Catholicism is the epitome of legalism.
Do this. Don’t do that.
You have to be baptized to be saved, but that doesn’t quite do it.
You also have to take communion to be saved, except that that isn’t enough either.
You have to go to confession to be eligible to take communion.
In addition, to be eligible for communion, you also have to do the penance they require of you to show how sorry you are for your sins.
And then communion doesn’t quite do it either. You have to do all kinds of charitable works and give money.
But wait a minute, even after jumping through all those hoops, you STILL DON’T KNOW whether you’re going to make it or not. You won’t find out until you get there and have your good works weighed against the bad and see which you have more of.”
~ ~ ~
The reason for these, as stated “legalisms”, the quote is mainly talking about the Sacraments, all of them instituted by God. In the 7 Sacraments you can be assured of God’s grace.
God’s grace helps you to be good. God’s grace, His presence in your soul is needed to get to Heaven. The question below, a help to simply explain the Sacraments.
* How would Jesus provide for the flow of grace to individual souls? *
Would the whole thing be invisible?
Would God simply give to each person of good will a silent inner conviction of being saved?
Each time that we felt the need of divine help, would we simply ask for it and immediately feel welling up within us a great surge of spiritual strength?
Consistent with how we are made God could have done it that way, of course. But God chose to be consistent. He chose to deal with man, in this matter of grace, in the same manner in which He had made man—through a union of the MATERIAL and the SPIRITUAL, of body and of soul.
The grace itself would be invisible, as by its nature it must be. But the grace would come to us through the visible things that we deal with daily.
And so God took the common things from the world about us—objects which we could taste and touch and feel, words that we could hear and gestures that we could understand—and made these the carriers of His grace.
A Sacrament is an ~ outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
“Catholicism is the epitome of legalism.
Do this. Don’t do that.
You have to be baptized to be saved, but that doesn’t quite do it.
You also have to take communion to be saved, except that that isn’t enough either.
You have to go to confession to be eligible to take communion.
In addition, to be eligible for communion, you also have to do the penance they require of you to show how sorry you are for your sins.
And then communion doesn’t quite do it either. You have to do all kinds of charitable works and give money.
But wait a minute, even after jumping through all those hoops, you STILL DON’T KNOW whether you’re going to make it or not. You won’t find out until you get there and have your good works weighed against the bad and see which you have more of.”
~ ~ ~
The reason for these, as stated “legalisms”, the quote is mainly talking about the Sacraments, all of them instituted by God. In the 7 Sacraments you can be assured of God’s grace.
God’s grace helps you to be good. God’s grace, His presence in your soul is needed to get to Heaven. The question below, a help to simply explain the Sacraments.
* How would Jesus provide for the flow of grace to individual souls? *
Would the whole thing be invisible?
Would God simply give to each person of good will a silent inner conviction of being saved?
Each time that we felt the need of divine help, would we simply ask for it and immediately feel welling up within us a great surge of spiritual strength?
Consistent with how we are made God could have done it that way, of course. But God chose to be consistent. He chose to deal with man, in this matter of grace, in the same manner in which He had made man—through a union of the MATERIAL and the SPIRITUAL, of body and of soul.
The grace itself would be invisible, as by its nature it must be. But the grace would come to us through the visible things that we deal with daily.
And so God took the common things from the world about us—objects which we could taste and touch and feel, words that we could hear and gestures that we could understand—and made these the carriers of His grace.
A Sacrament is an ~ outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
Actually, I do not know of anything that would disallow the Catholic from allowing for the promise of presently knowing you are saved based upon fruits of regeneration, (1Jn. 5:13; “these things,”) but what is disallowed by Trent is certainty - except by “special; revelation” - that one will never fall:
“No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.” [Trent, The Sixth Session, CHAPTER XII, http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06.html]
One must first be born again by personal repentance and faith out of a poor and contrite heart in the Lord Jesus to save one as a damned and destitute sinner, but saving faith is one that endures, which historic evangelical faith preached. And thus Scripture warns against apostasy, (Heb. 10:19-38; Gal. 5:1-4) and chastisement to effect repentance. (1Cor. 11:32) For God plays for keeps, not the Red Sox.
Sorry daniel, without Mary’s free will cooperation with
God in the plan of redemption we would not have been
redeemed, Jesus would not of become a human person.
People shouldn’t take the rejection of Mary by some of the reformers personal. You will come to accept her help and her love at the Great Warning when God makes things clear to everyone in the world.
We are all “co-redeemers” but in a lessor way by our prayers
and sufferings, those are personal “crosses” you offer to God for our families and other loved ones, for their conversion.
Mary of course, in a much greater way. ~Co-~ means WITH.
It isn't "my" way at all! What does God say? It appears that no matter how many times the canard is disputed that "Protestant" denominationalism means thousands of different interpretations of Scripture, people such as you refuse to hear it and actually think about and throw it up at every opportunity. It is intellectually dishonest and those who use it - even after being corrected - prove that they have no genuine interest in dialog and only participate to try to get the better of another. When comments such as yours start being ignored, you will know why.
Not one Catholic I’ve ever met was sure of making it to heaven.
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