Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
It does no such thing at all. First we don't know who set down the Dead Sea Scrolls, one possibility is the Essenes sect. Plus clearly the use a particular writing by one or more of Jewish groups in an apostate nation hardly proves it God inspired. There were lots of writings, about a third, not from the Hebrew Scriptures, found at the same location.
So perhaps I should rephrase: The apocrypha were not “taken out” of the Bible, they never belonged there.
Whether the first copies the LXX contained them is unknown but since they have never enjoyed the acceptance of the inspired Scriptures they must be rejected, Damasus or not. Martin Luther or not.
The Bible canon is not dependent upon either.
The apocrypha were removed from most English editions of the AV in the late 19th. Cen. and most AV editions are basically reprints of earlier editions.
This is still going on? The premise is that Luther rejected an established, indisputable canon, but which is not the case, as dispute abut certain books continued thru the centuries right into Trent. But as said in the previous post, even being the instrument and steward of Holy Writ does not make one the assuredly infallible interpreter of it. (though Rome seldom interprets verses, and the arguments and reasoning behind an infallible decree are not necessarily infallible)
But it seems that any substantiation that refutes the canard that Luther rejected an indisputable canon are blocked by the RC firewall, that is provided here. But we do not follow Luther as a pope anyway.
Not so, not so.
“ to another, the discerning of spirits;” refers to the ability to determine inspiration of prophecy. But you should know this just as you should be able to see that when Paul said “one” the unsaid “man” or person was understood. This is the most basic English.
1 Cor. 12:10, “To another (man, person),....” not to the whole congregation, not to the whole church but an individual person.
Paul was speaking of individual persons (1 Cor.12:7),
“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal”
There was no Jewish equivalent of a Magisterium. There were competing Qahals, none of which spoke for all Jews. The closest thing you could say to support your premise is that Jesus replaced a people with a Church, but no Church had existed before it.
"It's really pathetic to see the Catholic church still promulgating the lie that the individual believer is incapable of being led by the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture as Jesus promised we would be."
Please provide me some objective evidence that individual interpretation does not lead to a splintering of Christianity or lead to error because when two denominations disagree on interpretation they both cannot be right. When 30,000+ disagree you have sufficient objective evidence to establish a conclusive proof that is counter to the stated will of God.
Pathetic means having sympathetic sadness and compassion. Your tone suggest anything but sympathy and charity. Disdain, derision, ridicule and condescension are not Fruits of the Holy Spirit. Their predominance in your rebuttals makes whatever point you are attempting as believable and well received as weight loss advice from a 400 lb person over a bucket of chicken and half gallon of Hagen Daas. A more appropriate word than pity would have been schadenfreude.
Peace be with you.
And that kind of thinking is where ignorance or Scripture will get you. Paul is talking about individual believers here, not congregations. And even if he were, it would be enough to blow out of the water the idea that all churches have to be the same and agree. Because at the very least, congregation would differ from congregation as to which gifts each had. So much for the criticism of the number of denominations of Protestantism. The Body of Christ is not all one organ although if the Catholic church had it's way, that would be the case. Thank God that Christ is head of the church, not some man or group of men.
This is what Scripture says...
1 Corinthians 12:4-31 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
These gifts and offices are WITHIN the assembly (aka church) individually to each believer as the Holy Spirit determines is best for edifying the body, clearly showing that it is people who have been given the gifts of teaching etc, not *the *Church*, as an organization.
The body of Christ is an organism, which we are, not an organization which we belong to.
Scripture clearly states that knowledge, wisdom and understanding are gifts of the Holy Spirit and that not all are blessed with all of the gifts. To whom are those not blessed with the gifts of knowledge, wisdom and understanding to turn or the interpretation of Scripture and how are they to know to whom they must turn?
Amen! Thank you for that reminder.
stpio:
“God gave the gift to interpret Scripture to the Church, the RCC not “some individuals in the congregations.”
~ ~ ~
You left off my question for CYC metmom.
Count-your-change, friend, you didn’t answer my question.
= = =
CYC:
“It is noteworthy that one of the gifts of the spirit Paul listed was the ability of some individuals in the congregations to distinguish between true and false writings. (1 Cor, 12:10)”
~ ~ ~
1Cor 12:10
To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches.
Which ONE of the gifts is the gift to distinguish between true and false writings? God gave the gift to interpret Scripture to the Church, the RCC not “some individuals in the congregations.”
“Which one of the gifts is the gift to distinguish between true and false writings? God gave the gift to interpret Scripture to the Church, the RCC not “some individuals in the congregations.”
CYC:
“Not so, not so.
“ to another, the discerning of spirits;” refers to the ability to determine inspiration of prophecy. But you should know this just as you should be able to see that when Paul said “one” the unsaid “man” or person was understood. This is the most basic English.”
~ ~ ~
I just now saw your response to my question, sorry.
You first said “the gift to distinguish between true and false writings” is one of the gifts Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 12:10. The above, your answer to my asking which gift are you referring to in that verse?
What?...now...
You come up with a different meaning that has nothing to do with “distinguishing between true and false writings.” You
can’t defend the heresy of private judgment. Paul did not
name the Church’s God given gift to interpret Scripture in
1 Cor 12:10.
That contradicts Genesis 1:19 and in particular, the parable of the snake and the fruit. It also contradicts what you previously agreed with, which was that the Holy Spirit would not do one's thinking for them.
Sorry, that should have been Gen 1:27.
This was not “private judgment”, it was a gift from God to the individual like Paul's ability to heal or raise a dead person.
And you know this how? Perhaps you will explain what Paul meant at 1 Cor. 12:10?
“Paul did not name the Church’s God given gift to interpret Scripture in 1 Cor 12:10.”
That's what I said, he pointed to gifted individuals within the Christian church not some magisterium or infallible pronouncements of Popes.
“You come up with a different meaning that has nothing to do with “distinguishing between true and false writings.”
Prophecy, true and false, the inspiration (spirit) of writings....all would fall under what Paul called ‘diakriseis’, making a judgement or distinguishing one purported inspiration or one spirit from another.
“AFTER THE FINDING OF THE DEAD-SEA SCROLLS, IT WAS DISCOVERED THAT THESE 7 DC BOOKS WERE USED BY THE JEWS IN ALEXANDRIA, EVEN IN THEIR SERVICES. THIS VERFIES THAT POPE DAMASUS WAS CORRECT.”
CYC:
“It does no such thing at all. First we don’t know who set down the Dead Sea Scrolls, one possibility is the Essenes sect. Plus clearly the use a particular writing by one or more of Jewish groups in an apostate nation hardly proves it God inspired. There were lots of writings, about a third, not from the Hebrew Scriptures, found at the same location.”
~ ~ ~
Hi,
The IN CAPS is NOT about “who set down the Dead Sea Scrolls” but what did the DSS reveal about the Alexandrian Canon. This early group of Jews, one of the first converts to Christianity accepted and used those 7 books which the Palestinian Jews rejected and Martin Luther in 1517 rejected too. The 7 Books tossed called the Septuagint, Jesus referred to them many times in His teaching, this is how you know they are “God inspired.”
CYC:
“So perhaps I should rephrase: The apocrypha were not “taken out” of the Bible, they never belonged there.”
~ ~ ~
Trying to correct your error because Christian history and all but one Protestant Bible, the 1611 KJV say something else. But, you’re still going with Martin Luther.
I'm sure that you have a really good point you are trying to make, but its too late at the end of a rough week for me to see what it is. Forgive me if I go off on a tangent.
As my screen name would indicate I am familiar with the concept of natural law and the basic universal knowledge of the existence of God and the difference between right and wrong that is essentially buried within our human DNA. The capacity for knowledge, wisdom, and understanding that I spoke of and the potential for a lack of the gifts is not an absolute that would render a person human or something less than human. That said, every sentient person possesses some level of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of the world sufficient to survive.
My point is that spiritual gifts come from the Holy Spirit. In Isaiah 11:2-3 the Hebrew Bible lists six gifts and the Catholic (Septuagint) lists seven. These are (1) wisdom, (2) understanding, (3) counsel, (4) fortitude, (5) knowledge, (6) piety, and (7) fear of the Lord.
St. Paul tells us that although all in the Spirit receive gifts not all receive all of the gifts;
"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
So my question remains that if one is not blessed with the gift of knowledge and wisdom to whom should they turn for the correct interpretation of Scripture and how are they to know if the one they are turning to has the gift?
Peace be with you.
Jesus quoted from a version of LXX but not from the apocrypha therein. But you're free to provide examples if you have them.
“Hi,
The IN CAPS is NOT about “who set down the Dead Sea Scrolls” but what did the DSS reveal about the Alexandrian Canon. This early group of Jews, one of the first converts to Christianity accepted and used those 7 books which the Palestinian Jews rejected and Martin Luther in 1517 rejected too”
This early group of Jews? First converts to Christianity? The Essenes? They were a Jewish sect not Christian and an apostate one at that so what they used is neither here nor there.
“Trying to correct your error because Christian history and all but one Protestant Bible, the 1611 KJV say something else. But, you’re still going with Martin Luther”
What all this means is unclear...
stpio:
Hi,
The IN CAPS is NOT about “who set down the Dead Sea Scrolls” but what did the DSS reveal about the Alexandrian Canon. This early group of Jews, one of the first converts to Christianity accepted and used those 7 books which the Palestinian Jews rejected and Martin Luther in 1517 rejected too
“This early group of Jews? First converts to Christianity? The Essenes? They were a Jewish sect not Christian and an apostate one at that so what they used is neither here nor there.”
stpio:
Trying to correct your error because Christian history and all but one Protestant Bible, the 1611 KJV say something else. But, you’re still going with Martin Luther
“What all this means is unclear...”
~ ~ ~
CYC, “Here no there” again so it doesn’t matter? And...
You’re always trying to divert, change the discussion, we weren’t talking about the “Essenes” or wondering which group. You protested the fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls showed the Alexandrian Jews, early converts to the faith accepted and used the 7 Old Testament books. The DSS findings confirm Pope Damasus was right in his choice of divinely inspired writings for the Canon. The Holy Father’s authority is God given.
Martin Luther and before him, the Palestinian Jews who
REJECTED Christianity, out of fear removed 7 books from the Old Testament Canon, the books which Jesus taught and quoted from most often. I can share other facts.
Only if you are a Catholic...Bible believers have no problem finding Moses' seat in the OT...
There most certainly was...
Neh 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.
Neh 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Neh 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
Ezra was speaking from the 'seat of Moses'...
Facts on the Canon and Martin Luther removing 7 books from
the Canon.
http://www.fisheaters.com/septuagint.html
That is an interesting theory, but I'm going with a more traditional understanding; The seat of Moses referred to the chair, a literal chair, of the chief Justice that differed from the seats of the other judges in the court. It was the symbol of Jewish legal authority conferred upon judges (שופטים) akin to a king’s throne. The office was established by Moses.
It is good to know that Protestants acknowledge a precedent for a Magisterium, though.
Peace be with you.
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