Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Did they write the OT as claimed?
I think not. The Hebrew Scriptures were recognized and validated by Jesus Himself as Scripture.
The Catholic church cannot take responsibility for writing the Bible because it didn't. All it's trying to do is lay claim to it so it can claim to be the only valid authority for interpreting it.
Control access and interpretation of Scripture and to an extent, you control people's destiny.
The writers of the NT were called church fathers AFTER the fact. How convenient....
Do you not think that God wasn't perfectly capable of preserving His word without the help of the so-called Catholic church?
We have Scripture not because of the Catholic church but in spite of it.
As usual, wrong again.
Can you say Kennedy? Pelosi? Schumer? Kerry?
The level of hypocrisy demonstrated by Catholics for castigating other denominations for potentially serving communion to pro-abortion politicians when the Catholic church is know to do it continually, is simply breath taking in it’s magnitude.
It’s almost as staggering as the blindness of those Catholics doing the castigating to the evil that exists in their own church.
I’ve seen similar meaningless *prophetic* nonsense (drivel) posted by non-Catholics on FR as well.
The stuff is so vague as to be meaningless. It also has the advantage to the *prophet* of being unable to be tested to see if it comes true, which would then cause him to be labeled a false prophet.
Convenient for him......
"The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.'"- Luke 18:11
Tramonto, you just do not understand. Door does not mean door...I gave you that info previously. Read it. And if you have understanding, understand it.
And yes, the loaf is his body, the cup is his blood. I have full Spiritual understanding of that. If you have a problem with that, perhaps you should seek help from the Holy Spirit. And by the way, the loaf is a loaf, not wafers. And no, it has nothing to do with a priest praying and blessing that it become. Nor does it have anything to do with a Baptist minister saying this represents. Again, seek help from the Holy Spirit.
I pray He will give you understanding.
“We have Scripture not because of the Catholic church but in spite of it.”
~ ~ ~
You give history to confirm and you get a comeback line like
this one. Protestants have non history before 1517 but pay no attention.
Our Lord states you remain spiritually immature without the
Eucharist.
“The Catholic church cannot take responsibility for writing the Bible because it didn’t. All it’s trying to do is lay claim to it so it can claim to be the only valid authority for interpreting it.
Control access and interpretation of Scripture and to an extent, you control people’s destiny.
The writers of the NT were called church fathers AFTER the fact. How convenient....”
~ ~ ~
You come up with the above because you reject history, the
Truth. Who did compile the Canon metmom? The “control”
objection is lame. People have free will. No one controls you, you left the faith.
The “Church Fathers”, some of them knew the Apostles.
They are called the “Apostolic Fathers.”
How can you call the Bible your authority and not state
exactly where it came from? Rejecting the RCC who gave
you your Bible, that’s ridiculous.
How the Canon of the Bible (the official catalog of inspired books) was officially declared.
362 A.D. Catholic Church’s Council of Rome defines the Canon of Holy Scripture.
382 Pope Damasus issues a listing of the present OT and NT Canon of 73 books
383 Saint Jerome translates the Latin Vulgate from Greek & Hebrew
393 Council of Hippo (North Africa) approves the present Canon of 73 books
397 Council of Constantinople produces first bound Bible (the Vulgate: previously, all
were separate books)
397 Council of Carthage (North Africa) approves the same OT and NT canon
405 Pope Saint Innocent I approves the Canon again and closes it (with 73 books)
All those councils that you name NEVER varied from the exact same books that make up the 27 book New Testament. Where they differ - and they DO - is how they categorize those books that they decided to tack onto the Old Testament - which were REJECTED by the Jewish religious authorities - called the Deuterocanonicals or Apocryphals.
One thing else, your "prophet" did happen to say one thing right...there certainly WILL be shock and dismay when Jesus returns. That will be because people who are trusting that their works, merits, good deeds, sacramental participation save them, come to realize that they DO NOT and CANNOT save them. It is only by God's grace THROUGH faith that we can be saved. It means we depend upon Jesus and him alone to redeem us by His precious shed blood. It is only His blood that makes atonement for the soul and relying upon our own righteousness cancels out the grace of God. "Not by righteous deeds which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." (Titus 3:4)
On that day of judgment, many will come before Christ and extol all the wonderful works that they did for Him, and he will say, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you.". I pray people look long at hard at that point and come to the saving grace of faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." (Galatians 2:21)
And where, pray tell, does our Lord say that?
Might doesn’t make right. Longevity is no measure of authenticity. Other religions have been around longer than Catholicism. If you’re going to argue that that criteria is what gives them authenticity or authority, they need to step aside and let others take their place.
Not to mention that history can be falsified. Unless it’s the very words of God, I don’t put much stock in it.
And I especially don’t trust the history painted by any organization about itself, with the Catholic church’s known history, that puts said organization in a positive light, ignoring or excusing known corruption and immorality.
It smacks too much of propaganda.
There is way too much history from outside sources of what the Catholic church was to ignore.
Final authority is Scripture, which was recognized long before it was officially recognized as canon. Putting the RCC stamp of approval on it doesn’t make it Scripture or give it authority or mean the RCC wrote the Bible.
Chapter and verse?
Calling people *Catholics* and *church fathers* hundreds of years after they died does not make them so.
It’s no different than the Mormons who baptize the dead and claim them to be Mormon.
Unless those people themselves state that they were Roman Catholics, I don’t recognize anyone else’s claim that they were. It’s just a blatant attempt to validate a power grab.
bttt
“Calling people *Catholics* and *church fathers* hundreds of years after they died does not make them so.
It’s no different than the Mormons who baptize the dead and claim them to be Mormon.
Unless those people themselves state that they were Roman Catholics, I don’t recognize anyone else’s claim that they were. It’s just a blatant attempt to validate a power grab.”
~ ~ ~
You reject history to your loss. You haven’t stated who canonized Scripture since it is your PO, the RCC didn’t. Second time I have asked metmom. Post it.
Don’t bother with the usual complete two paragraph early Church history from 33 A.D. until 1517. You know with the single lone name overkill of Constantine. You can’t mention any of the first Christians from history because everyone knows they are Roman Catholic.
Here is an Apostolic Father, the 3rd Bishop of Antioch,
his name is Ignatius. Notice, there is a hierarchy.
~~~~~ ~~~~~
•Scripture tells us that the Gospels do not include all of Jesus’ words or miracles
•Some teachings of Christ were passed down from Christ to the Apostles and then to the next generation of Christians
•These people are known as the Apostolic Fathers.
Ex: St. Ignatius of Antioch was taught directly by the APOSTLE St. John.
St Ignatius was the first to use the term “CATHOLIC Church”.
“wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the CATHOLIC Church”
Our Lord states you remain spiritually immature without the Eucharist.
“And where, pray tell, does our Lord say that?”
~ ~ ~
See 1 Cor 12:28, notice, listed after the Apostles, are the prophets. Prophecy is important. Believe in Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist.
http://www.godspeakswillyoulisten.org/
11/06/07
Our Lord:
..”A soul who does not partake of My Eucharist remains a SPIRITUAL BABY. Just as a human baby must eat solid food to grow to adulthood, so spiritually you must receive My graces through the sacraments to mature to spiritual adulthood. The body must be fed to grow. Likewise, the soul must be fed to grow and mature. Satan knows this truth. This is why he has deceived many of my people with false interpretations of my scriptures.”...
Our Lord states you remain spiritually immature without the Eucharist.
“Chapter and verse?”
~ ~ ~
First, if you don’t mind please share:
“And where does our Lord say that” all of God’s revelation
is written in the Bible?
“Official” canons did nothing more than compile into one volume those books that had ALREADY been known AND used throughout the Christian faithful communities and they taught the SAME truths that the Apostles and disciples had already established as the truths of the faith. The last book to be written was around 95 A.D., but all the others were and had been in circulation for decades and recognized AS Holy Scripture because of the authority given them by the Apostles as well as their life-changing properties within the hearts of those very believers. Having them all collected into one nice, neat volume had NO effect in their authority NOR recognition of being from the Spirit of God.”
~ ~ ~
hi boatbums,
The Canon of Scripture hasn’t changed in 2000 years. There were many early Christian writings so an authority had to decide which ones were divinely inspired. It was Pope Damasus.
“All those councils that you name NEVER varied from the exact same books that make up the 27 book New Testament. Where they differ - and they DO - is how they categorize those books that they decided to tack onto the Old Testament - which were REJECTED by the Jewish religious authorities - called the Deuterocanonicals or Apocryphals.
~ ~ ~
I only named a couple of “councils” and you failed to say
they are all Roman Catholic. I just shared, yes, the
Canon hasn’t changed, you’re right. Sadly....
Martin Luther came along in 1517 and threw out 7 books of
the Canon. He was NEVER guided by God. Luther tossed out
the Old Testament Canon which Our Lord and the Apostles
quoted from the most. There were two OT Canons, Jesus
referred to the Alexandrian Canon also known as the Septuagint.
Where did He tell us to believe everything that everyone claims is from Him?
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
John 20:30-31 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 6:10-18 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
How do you know that all those *prophecies* that you've been posting are from God? What test do you apply to those pronouncements to determine their veracity? Or do you just believe anyone who comes along and says *Thus sayeth the Lord,....*?
There MUST be some way of determining their veracity to know that they are from God. If it's not using Scripture, then what does one use?
“And where does our Lord say that” all of God’s revelation
is written in the Bible?”
It doesn't. What IS said is that all that is necessary to make us perfect, completely equipped for doing God's will is there (1 Tim. 3:17) and that we can be made holy by means of His word (John 17:17) to the gaining of eternal life. (John 17:3).
Jesus said he would send the holy spirit to enlighten and enliven the minds of the disciples so that when they wrote down the Scriptures they didn't have to rely on their own imperfect and faulty memories. (John 14:26)
Therefore Paul could say God's Word exerts power and is alive (Heb. 4:12) it being a product of His spirit, “All Scripture is inspired by God....”. (1 Tim.3:16)
So is an extra-biblical revelation needed or just guidance by spirit into a better understanding of those presented to us in the Scriptures?
“And where does our Lord say that” all of God’s revelation
is written in the Bible?
“IT DOESN’T. What IS said is that all that is necessary to make us perfect, completely equipped for doing God’s will is there (1 Tim. 3:17) and that we can be made holy by means of His word (John 17:17) to the gaining of eternal life. (John 17:3).”
~ ~ ~
Hi. Correct, you said it, the BOLDED...Martin Luther’s “Bible Alone” is heresy.
You meant 2 Timothy.
2 Tim 3:15
And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, [17] That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.
Timothy only knew the written OLD Testament from infancy.
Jesus teachings were all oral. The Apostles shared them in the same way, passed them on orally. It was later SOME of Jesus’ teachings were written down and compiled...the Bible.
You accept part of the Oral Word even though you profess “Bible Alone.”
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