Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

The point was that sickness is not always because of particular sins but that God is over all and when he allows sickness, he has a purpose. Sometimes that purpose is to not take it away, to not heal it, and that seems to be what "faith-healers" and those that promote their works often miss. As to whether or not there are specific people who have the first-century "gift" of healing, I say look at what they do, how they do it, who they use to demonstrate this supposed power, who gets the glory, and how they deal with people who do not respond to their actions. In most cases, the sick person is blamed for the failure of the faith healer. If people were honest about it, they would understand that God no longer uses men with this power, that his Word is the standard by which to measure the source of the power and that it is God, alone, who heals or does not heal - all for HIS glory.

Why do you feel the NEED to tell me this? Let's be honest - YOU are the one that went to a faith healer - NOT ME.

I was healed by MY FAITH. And I don't serve a 'sometimes' God.

>> If they felt the HS leave, why didn't they leave, also, I wonder.<<

Why do you make the assumption they didn’t? They did leave as did I.

>> No one should make what he does a reason for their own failure.<<

Who make it about their own failure?

>> All we can do is hope he gets back 'to his first love'.<<

I think his first love was the adulation that his hero Kulman (sp?) had.

If we are told to "test the spirits to see if they are from God" and "prove all things" by the Word of God, then Scripture IS our authority as our ONLY infallible rule and measuring rod. This means that we must NOT base our beliefs upon experiences or subjective feelings but upon the objective Word of God.

It's good to see you know that. 'I am The Lord that heals you', God never changes and 'He is no respecter of persons'. Now, according to your experience DON'T CHANGE IT!!

We also are warned more than a few times that there will be false teachers who are able to deceive through signs and wonders, so we MUST have an objective source with which to determine what is and is not from God. If nothing else I have said so far gets through, I pray at least this does.

Is that the snooty attitude you speak of? Like you are some teacher and no one 'gets it' but you? Guess what - 'My sheep hear My voice...".

So pray for yourself that you do 'get it' and stop the finger pointing. We are warned about false teachers from God's Word - we know it, so get over it - they aren't going away because you are so offended by their existence.

Why do you feel the NEED to tell me this? Let's be honest - YOU are the one that went to a faith healer - NOT ME. I was healed by MY FAITH. And I don't serve a 'sometimes' God.

I wasn't making my comments TO you, but as an answer to what you were saying. You implied that physical healing is part of the atonement and that God WILL always heal anyone who asks him in faith. I disagree with you though I agree that no one can tell you anything as it seems your mind is already set.

For the record, I did not go to a faith healer, but followed Scriptural guidelines for the pastor and elder of my church coming to my home and praying for my healing. I was not healed and I accept that God has his purpose in allowing this suffering in my life as he has done in others lives, as well. That was the point of my comment lest anyone reading yours would go away thinking they had to add a failure of their faith to the pain they were already experiencing.

This does not in any way imply that God is a "sometimes" God, quite the contrary. Almighty God is sovereign over all, nothing is outside of his power to do, He ALONE is to be glorified even when it appears His answer to prayers for healing is "not now" or, even, "no". The TRUE test of faith is how we accept his will when it goes against our own "druthers". Again, I repeat, God is not Santa God. He does not perform on command. He does not bring into our lives anything - even healing - if it does not conform to His perfect will and a mature faith grows as it realizes He never stops loving us.

Why do you make the assumption they didn’t? They did leave as did I.

The thousands who were full faith left. OK. I didn't make an assumption, it was how your post read.

Who make it about their own failure?

I've read here that some had their faith shaken.

I think his first love was the adulation that his hero Kulman (sp?) had.

Did he become a Christian thru her ministry?

You implied that physical healing is part of the atonement and that God WILL always heal anyone who asks him in faith.

Can't you get anything right. I never said who 'asks' HIM. If I ask what does that say about my faith? I believe.

I disagree with you though I agree that no one can tell you anything as it seems your mind is already set.

You certainly can't - on that my mind is set.

coming to my home and praying for my healing.

My mistake, you didn't go anywhere - he came to you. Details, details.

I could get into how wrong you are but I'm am not inclined in the least as your mind is set that God has a greater purpose for sickness. That's really an offensive to God.

Can't you get anything right. I never said who 'asks' HIM. If I ask what does that say about my faith? I believe.

I get quite a bit "right" because I know the word of God. Again, where is this bitter hostility coming from?

My mistake, you didn't go anywhere - he came to you. Details, details.

Details? It wasn't a "faith healer" that came but the pastor and an elder like in James 5:14-16 "Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven." You've read that part, right?

I could get into how wrong you are but I'm am not inclined in the least as your mind is set that God has a greater purpose for sickness. That's really an offensive to God.

You have certainly tried to tell me how wrong I and others are but when we disagree as well as quote from Scripture, you seem to refuse to hear it. That would be offensive to God.

I'm not sure where this negative, condemning attitude is coming from other than that I simply disagree with you about some points and, apparently, your pride is hurt.

There you go again - saying what you don't know - just that is sounds good to you. One only has to read your posts and have them self a good laugh at how much you think of yourself. You are projecting.

my words come across as "snooty" or "teachery", it is because you don't like to be disagreed with because you DO think you know it all.

There you go again. You words didn't come across other than what they were. And that I DO know. I really could give a flip if you agree with me or not - it has NO bearing on my life at all. Not strange of you to think you are that important though.

I can take it because I don't expect everyone to see things exactly as I do all the time and I can respect the path each person is going down as they mature in their faith. Try it sometime.

You did it again. That is not a sign of maturity but a self imposed superiority.

"...that God has a greater purpose for sickness. That's really an offensive to God."

Then you need to tell Him that Paul lied. "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most GLADLY THEREFORE will I rather glory in my INFIRMITIES, that the POWER OF CHRIST may REST UPON ME. Therefore I take PLEASURE IN INFIRMITIES, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses FOR CHRIST'S SAKE; for WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN AM I STRONG." 2 Cor. 12:9,10.

I know, an oldie but a goodie. It's amazing how many times this Scripture MUST be given to remind some that God has HIS purposes for us.

OK pnsn, then could you please explain why, after God giving us through the divine inspiration of Scripture instructions as to go about procuring healing and someone follows those instructions, that they are NOT healed?

And the excuse of the afflicted person not having enough faith doesn't wash for two reasons.

First off, Luke 17:5-6 5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” 6 And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

Matthew 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

And....

How is calling for the elders and being anointed with oil according to Scripture NOT demonstrating enough faith to be healed? The person obviously had enough faith to act on it.

Now if the amount of a person's faith is is the criteria for being healed, then when they aren't healed, what happens? Their faith is judged as inadequate by those around them who based their judgment on outward signs, IOW, because God didn't do in their lives what everyone else thought should have happened.

That is putting yourself in the position of judging God and your fellow believer based on outward appearances, something we are not to do.

Do you know what kind of damage can be done to a person's walk with Christ, particularly a baby Christian, when they are told that they don't have enough faith?

That is absolutely inexcusable.

I was by no means a baby Christian when I started encountering that mindset, and I still struggled with it, until I reached the point of realizing that they were WRONG and ignoring them. But not everyone has that kind of maturity or fortitude.

They forget we still have bodies under the fall....our souls have een redeemed but not our bodies. If all they say was true then they should all be in perfect health now. But even the healers were plagued with long term illnesses they kept under wraps until after they died and it was revealed.

God is gracious to take events and happenings and illnesses and use them for His good and purposes....we go thru life and life is difficult..He said it would be so...but along the way HE meets us and with us to see us thru.

As for those who cannot accept your scripture reference....to do so would rob them of the “other” add ons and they just won’t give them up.

AMEN, caww. "For our conversation is IN HEAVEN; from whence also we LOOK FOR THE SAVIOUR, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Philippians 3:20,21.

As long as we are in these bodies, they are VILE. We are told to put no confidence in the flesh. The outer man is perishing daily. And yet, there are those whose sole purpose is praying for a healing of this vile body? And if He chooses NOT to heal it, then WHAT? WHAT are they left with, if all their hope and faith is in that healing? Certainly this Scripture comes to mind:

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made SHIPWRECK:.."1 Tim. 1:19.

If faith can only be in a healing experience, then IF that healing doesn't occur, that faith is made shipwreck. And it has taken all other forms of our faith right down with it. That is a person who is no longer an effective workman for Christ. Who will stand ashamed before Him one day, having lost all because their "faith" was placed in one "proof" that God WOULD, not that God has His own plan.

They forget we still have bodies under the fall....our souls have een redeemed but not our bodies.

And even though we are perfect in Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places, we are not perfect yet. The old nature is very much alive, we still all sin, we are still here on earth, not up IN heaven.

The redemption of our souls and bodies is both completed and has not yet been completed.

Easy and pat answers just don't cut it. I've known far too many really mature Christians and very godly people who deal with health issues. They are not healed.

For that matter, the miraculous healings that the faith movement claims, just is NOT there. There is a staggering difference between the healings claimed and reality, and reality just does not line up with their doctrine of how it SHOULD be, or how they would like it to be.

James 1:2-4 2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

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