AGAIN!
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Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …
… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…
At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!
“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
Been there.
Done that.
No big compulsion to go down that futile road again. I already batted my head against that brick wall far too many times.
IF AND WHEN the miracle occurs that y’all demonstrate you’ve heard me [did NOT say agreed with me],
I MIGHT be interested in a meaningful dialogue if such were to demonstrably develop.
I will note that probably the more significant healing in our congregation in the last year or so was a deaf lady.
What does that even MEAN?? Been WHERE? Done WHAT? WHAT futile road? What brick wall? God's timeline? The Book of Acts? Law and Grace? Quix, what you said doesn't even make sense. It's like you wrote a bunch of responses out and are pulling them out, one at a time, and posting them, all willy nilly. Like a Magic Eight Ball or something. "Could be." Or "Try again."....
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.
Scripture gives us the pattern for dealing with sickness. I don't see the pentecostal/charismatic movement adhering to that Scriptural mandate.
So no one is saying that God doesn't heal any more. That lady in your church was healed of deafness and that's great news.
However, that in no way validates the false teaching that exists in the charismatic/pentecostal movement.
Clearly . . . the understanding of my posting is
. . . drum roll . . . getting
WORSE! LOL.
This is what I'm not getting here. Not a single one of us has said this, and yet, it seems to be translated as such. We ALL believe that God CAN AND DOES heal, as HE WILLS. How is the translation going wrong between what we clearly SAY and what others hear us saying?
When did I say that? Only the gifts that GOD says will be ceased are ceased. The Holy Spirit gift shop doesn't dispense the gift of Apostleship or the gift of Prophecy anymore, does he? So why could he not cease others that have served their purpose as well? But, getting back to the question, what is your interpretation of the gift of discernment?
If we are told to "test the spirits to see if they are from God" and "prove all things" by the Word of God, then Scripture IS our authority as our ONLY infallible rule and measuring rod. This means that we must NOT base our beliefs upon experiences or subjective feelings but upon the objective Word of God. We also are warned more than a few times that there will be false teachers who are able to deceive through signs and wonders, so we MUST have an objective source with which to determine what is and is not from God. If nothing else I have said so far gets through, I pray at least this does.
I keep reading through these posts and watch as one side posts scripture to substantiate their view and belief and the other side posts kindergarten picture posts. One side posts scripture in context and the other side posts youtube videos. It’s becoming more obvious in this day and age that strict adherence to scripture in context with an understanding of who the writers were writing to is paramount to avoiding the deception we have been warned is coming in these last days.
Excuse me for just a sec.....WELL BOO, HOO, HOO, NOBODY LIKES ME, EVERYBODY HATES ME, I'M GOING OUT TO THE GARDEN AND EAT WORMS!!!
Whew, there, I feel better. :o)
Has it possibly occurred to you, dear Quix, in ALL these 600+ posts that the problem is NOT that we have failed to understand you, NOT that we haven't found grounds with which to agree with you nor that we are just being obstinate hard heads, but that either you have not yet communicated your beliefs adequately (not likely) OR that there will be no agreement with you on the ONE issue you have failed to convince us on?
It's one or the other. If it's the former, try, try again. If the latter, let it go and rest in the Lord that HE is glorified and WILL be glorified. Trust that He IS working in our lives as HE sees fit.
There are three approaches that can be followed to determine WHEN tongues did in fact cease. We shall now consider each of these approaches.
I. THE HISTORICAL APPROACH
There is overwhelming historical evidence that the gift of tongues ceased early in the history of the church. Richard Quebedeaux, a friend of the Charismatic movement, admits this very fact:
"Evidence for the appearance of glossolalia, at least from the late second century to the eighteenth or nineteenth century, is scarce and frequently obscure. ... Origen, in the third century, and Chrysostom, in the fourth, both disparaged the accounts of speaking in tongues, and rejected its continued validity. Augustine, early in the fifth century, asserted that glossolalia was a sign adapted only to biblical times" (Richard Quebedeaux, The New Charismatics, pp. 20-21).
The comment by the preacher Chrysostom is worthy of note: "This whole place is very obscure [commenting on the references to tongues in 1 Corinthians] but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur, but now no longer take place" (Homilies, XXIX, 1). In other words, Chrysostom writing in the 4th century recognized that the gift of tongues described by Paul was something that used to occur in Paul's day but which no longer took place in Chrysostom's day. He refers to the "cessation" of this gift.
Cleon Rogers wrote the following: "It is significant that the gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to, hinted at or even found in any writings of the Post Apostolic Fathers" (The Charismatics, p. 169). It is significant to note that the gift of tongues is mentioned in 1 Corinthians, one of Paul's earliest epistles, but it is not mentioned in any of Paul's later epistles. This suggests that the gift of tongues may have ceased even before the canon of Scripture was closed!
II. THE CONTEXTUAL APPROACH
This approach seeks to determine when tongues ceased by examining the context of 1 Corinthians 13:8 ("tongues ... shall cease"). The main message of this chapter can be summarized as follows:
1) There are three things that will fail (verse 8).
2) There are three things that will remain (verse 13).
3) There is one thing that will never fail (verse 8); it will remain forever (verse 13).
This indicates three time periods:
1) The time when the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge are in force. These are special revelatory gifts given by God in the days of the early church.
2) The time when the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge have failed, ceased and vanished away (verse 8) and the virtues of faith, hope and love remain (verse 13). This is the present age.
3) The time when only love remains but faith and hope do not remain. Faith is replaced by sight (2 Cor. 5:7; Heb. 11:1) and hope is replaced by realization (Rom. 8:24-25). This is the eternal state.
Thus, the passage clearly teaches that there must be a period of time prior to the eternal state when the gifts of tongues and prophecy are no longer in effect and when the virtues of faith and hope are still in effect. This contradicts the teaching of those who insist that the gift of tongues has been given by God throughout this present age.
III. THE PURPOSIVE APPROACH
What was the purpose of the gift of tongues? If the purpose for tongues is known, then it is possible to determine when tongues ceased. The purposive argument may be thus stated: Tongues ceased when they no longer served the purpose for which they were given.
There is only one place in the New Testament where Paul tells us the purpose of the gift of tongues: "Wherefore, tongues are FOR a sign ... ..." (1 Corinthians 14:22). The preposition translated "for" (eis) denotes purpose. Paul's explanation in verse 22 concerning the purpose of tongues is actually an inference based upon his words in verse 21. Verse 21 begins with these important words, "In the law it is written ..."
In verse 21 Paul cited an Old Testament passage, Isaiah 28:11-12. Paul knew that the key to understanding the Biblical purpose of tongues is found "in the law," that is, in the Old Testament Scriptures. What does the Old Testament teach concerning tongues? What was the significance and purpose of tongues in Old Testament times? When foreign tongues were spoken, what did this mean?
Isaiah 28 is not the only passage in the Old Testament which deals with the significance of foreign tongues. Several such passages together set forth a very sobering Biblical principle -- a principle which has been demonstrated repeatedly in history. As we consider foreign tongues in the Old Testament, a very sobering and sad pattern becomes evident:
GENESIS 11
God has a message for the people (Genesis 9:1,7). The people refuse to listen to God (Genesis 11:4). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Genesis 11:7).
Dispersion follows (Genesis 11:8).
DEUTERONOMY 28
God has a message for His people (Deut. 28:1). The people refuse to listen to God (Deut. 28:15). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Deut. 28:49).
Dispersion follows (Deut. 28:64-65).
JEREMIAH 5
God has a message for His people (Jer. 4:1). The people refuse to listen to God (Jer. 5:3). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Jer. 5:15).
Dispersion follows (Jer. 5:19).
ISAIAH 28
God has a message for His people (Isaiah 28:12a). The people refuse to listen to God (Isaiah 28:12b). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Isaiah 28:11).
Dispersion follows (Isaiah 28:13).
COMPARE THE OPPOSITE TAUGHT IN ISAIAH 33
The context is the millennium. God causes tongues to not be heard indicating that Israel would enjoy the blessing of God (verse 19). There would be no more dispersion!
THE PATTERN REPEATED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
God has a message for the people (Matt. 11:28; compare Jer. 4:1; Isa. 28:12).
The people refuse to listen to God (Matt. 23:37).
God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment (Acts 2,10,19, etc.).
Dispersion follows (Matt. 23:38; 24:2).
The gift of tongues served as a sign of judgment for unbelieving Israel. The sign of judgment is no longer needed after the judgment has come. In A.D. 70, the Romans under General Titus brought the Christ-rejecting nation Israel to its final ruin. Ever since A.D. 70, there has been no question that Israel as a nation is under the judgment of God. Therefore, it must be concluded that tongues as a sign gift were no longer needed after 70 AD. The last historical mention of the gift of tongues is found in 1 Corinthians, which was written about 55 AD. There is no evidence historically that the genuine gift of tongues ever occurred after 70 AD. Tongues served their purpose, and tongues ceased, even as God predicted through the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 13:8).
What I don't get here is why the death grip on speaking in tongues and other signs and wonders?
Is it that some people need *proof* that God is working in their lives? Proof that God filled them? Can't they tell any other way?
When I got filled with the Holy Spirit, I KNEW it was of God. It was way too powerful an experience. I didn't and still don't need to speak in tongues to validate the experience. If someone needs a sign like that to tell them that God did something in their lives, then it wasn't God.
It's like being given a brick of gold boxed up in a shoebox and all I focus on is this cool shoe box I got to prove that I got the gold.
Do some people need this as assurance that they're saved or have been filled? Is the recognition that tongues can be faked that much of a threat to them that they can't acknowledge it to be a possibility because then they have nothing to point to for their security?
I can see the point of signs to validate the message of the gospel to unbelievers, but for believers who are already supposed to have faith, what's the point of the sign? Can't they see when God's working without it?
Interestingly, I came across another list of gifts that Paul lists and I don't recall EVER seeing any charismatic or pentecostal seeking after THESE gifts....
Romans 12:1-8 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
And with these gifts, there's no mention of them passing away when perfection comes.
Well said!
That’s particularly interesting that tongues was not recognized and that it was acknowledged to have not been practiced by the very early church fathers; that there’s actually record of it having ceased.
You know, if Paul had written to any other church about tongues than the Corinthians church, it may have been a whole different matter, but the Corinthian church was one really messed up church. I’m not sure of the wisdom of following their example in anything.
Yeah, but, then the passing collection plate may not get as full as fast with THOSE gifts among the congregation as with the fancy, wowy, showy ones. ;o)
You know, when I hear about the lifestyles of those faith healers, their lavish lifestyles, their immoral escapades, and some of the completely whacked out things they teach and write, I don’t know why on earth anyone would follow them, signs notwithstanding.
The signs don’t negate all the rest of their unscriptural lifestyle and teachings. Their fruit should disqualify their gifts as being authentic, as opposed to their gifts disqualifying their fruit. IOW, you ignore the gifts if the fruit is rotten, not ignore the fruit if the gifts are there.
After all, we’re told that by their fruits we will know them, not by their gifts we will know them.
In those churches, as soon as the Communist infiltrator made his accusation, people from all OVER the church would press him : "What witnesses do you have?" "Who are YOU? We've never seen you before?" etc. etc.
For what it's worth...
Cheers!
PS -- to Quix and metmom: So when's the wedding ? ;-)
Cheers!
Well, the teachings of the various faith healers and high profile figures are out there for all to see. Many of them have written books stating some of their bizarro teachings.
As far as how they live, that’s generally public knowledge as well.
The main point is, however, is that we’ve gotten into this mentality that people can only say good things about others and nothing bad. If it’s good, then it has credibility on its own merits, but if it’s bad, it’s just slander and an axe to grind, etc. Not everything that sounds negative, ie exposes error, is untrue. You can look at a situation objectively and state the facts about it, like the teaching that tongues is the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit has no Scriptural support or that tongues is a special prayer language that makes one more effective in prayer than when one prays in their own native language.
There is NO Scriptural support for either of these common teachings of today and pointing that out is not entertaining a charge against an elder of immorality. So it doesn’t fall into the same category at all.
However, if what the person is teaching is unscriptural, then even the bad sounding stuff actually has credibility, even though it’s accused of being negative.
It’s like we can’t even acknowledge fraud or charlatans without being accused of something. Scripture warns us about false teachers and tells us how to detect them. We ARE to judge based on their teachings and their fruit and are never commanded to judge by signs and wonders..
The long and short of it is, that the gifts are not the criteria for determining whether teaching or the person is of God, it’s fruit and fidelity to Scripture that is the criteria.
The emphasis is on the wrong thing and that presents a tremendous danger to the spiritually immature or those lacking discernment.
Hmmm, I can think of a couple of counterexamples.
For instance Saul (Jewish king, not the Tarsus New Testament dude) was tormented by an evil spirit, for which David would play music to grant him relief.
(That's 1 Samuel 16...interestingly enough, recall that earlier in his life, Saul had had the Holy Spirit come upon him to the point that he prophesied (1 Samuel 10)...but through disobedience, the Spirit of God left him.
Second example, 1 Kings 22:20ff. God asks the spirits who will entice King Ahab to enter a particular battle in order that he be killed. In verse 22 a spirit says that "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
Recall also how Ahab was p*ssy-whipped by Queen Jezebel who preferred the prophets of Baal to the prophets of the Lord, and how Ahab once suborned perjury in order to kill an innocent man to gain possession of his vineyard.
Lessons: yup, demons can go and oppress or fool people -- or at the least, disobedient Old Testament Jewish Kings.
Don't be a disobedient Old Testament Jewish King: and, for safety's sake, strive to be obedient anyway: King David committed egregious sins, and though God hid his sin and did not hold it against him, he still had one of his sons rape one of his daughters, had a brother of that daughter rebel against him and depose him, sealing the rebellion by having sex with David's wives (concubines) in the sight of all Israel, etc., etc.
And then you have the demon repeatedly killing one poor woman's husbands on her (successive) honeymoons in the Apocryphal book of Tobit: and the archangel Raphael came to the aid of the woman and her (newest) husband to drive the demon away.
And speaking of angels, you have in Daniel, where he begins to pray, and the angel Gabriel sent by God had to fight the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" for three weeks until the archangel Michael came to help him -- and recall that Daniels righteousness was such that one of the later prophets (Ezekiel) referred to him by name as an example, saying, "...even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD."
Therefore, we can be reasonably confident that Daniel's sinfulness played no role in Gabriel having to fight off the prince of Persia...
Much food for thought.
Cheers!
"For the Benny Hinn followers ask for signs, and the Dutch Reformed seek after wisdom, but we preach Free Republic, a stumbling block to the RINOS and a ZOT to the liberals..."
Cheers!
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