Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

Let me tell you smvoice, there’s something about these small plain churches that people need to look closer at as I too got the greatest teaching in a small seemingly insignificant church. It was an Evangelical Free Church practically in my backyard!

The Pastor also used a chalkboard for his sermons....and when I first saw him I said to myself...yea right! Until he opened his mouth and spoke Gods word at every point he was making...a great ability to engage people with his sermons as he wove the tapestry of God’s word together. Remarkable says it well.

Best teaching I ever had and since. I think also if you know God’s word you can far more appreciate a Pastor who is telling it like it is with remarkable clarity...it just sits well with your soul.

I had some “experiences” with a Charasmatic group..and let me tell you I was beyond uncomfortable with what they were doing....as you say you just know something is wrong there....and the “feelings” are creepy to say the least. Further just as you mentioned....what little, and it was little, time spent in bible study, (and this was a bible study I was invited to), was with an air of getting past it so the show could go on. Needless saying I never went back. Once was enough for me!

This is a good, and objective, link about John Wimber, his teachings and activities: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm

Feh. I looked up the site and found that it said that C.S. Lewis wasn't going to heaven; that Bonhoeffer was heretical (it's funny that in Googling the quote, I find several quotes from Bonhoeffer's books, each illustrating a point held to be heretical, cut-and-pasted at a number of "fundamentalist" sites...without acknowledging or responding to requests either for the original text, or the surrounding paragraphs. One of the people doing this is bragging about an M.Div and a PhD. BFD.)

In addition, the site criticizes Larry Burkett (financial advisor) and says - Though Burkett's books and seminars dealing with finances contained a few Scriptural principles (as well as many worldly insights for handling money), we believe that these seminars, in particular, may have been the latest satanic "wile" to entrap historical separatists-fundamentalists in the neo-evangelical net.

The site criticizes Billy Graham and his son Franklin:

Early in June 1996, Franklin Graham, interviewed on CNBC, declared, "[W]hether it's the Roman Catholic Church ... the Orthodox Church ...we'd all agree ... it's Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for sin." That statement was tragically deceptive. Could Franklin, like his father, be unaware that Catholicism and Orthodoxy, while using the same Biblical words as evangelicals, mean something else? Franklin Graham told the Indianapolis Star (6/3/99) that his father's longstanding ecumenical alliance with the Catholic Church and all other denominations, "was one of the smartest things his father ever did." The charismatic Charisma magazine in 10/95 contained a 7-page article on Franklin Graham. They quoted him as saying, "I thank God for the warmth I see within many of the charismatic churches -- their love for the Lord and love for the scriptures. ..." He also said, "Probably (Samaritan's Purse) largest base of support comes from the charismatic community." He has referred to "Mother" Teresa as an "example of the woman God uses" (4/1/99, Calvary Contender).

The site goes on to trash a large number of other people, including (for example) James Dobson, Tim LaHaye, Max Lucado, Frank Peretti, Josh McDowell, Jerry Falwell, and Martin Luther. And particular attention is made to whenever anyone has anything to do with (*spit*) Catholics!

I find it interesting that in your earlier conversation, you cut-and-pasted yourself directly from this site about Job being the only person afflicted by a demon when it wasn't their fault (paraphrasing, more or less), despite the fact that I was able to come up with multiple Old Testament examples off of the top of my head, and Quix later gave a New Testament example.

So if they get the facts so wrong, and spend most of their time attacking other Christians, why give them the time of day?

Cheers!

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

!ABSOLUTELY INDEED!
ABSOLUTELY INDEED TO THE MAX.

I gave up with Dave Hunt and Hanegraph long ago. Their spirit just didn't leave my spirit feeling at peace. They seemed far more interested in rock throwing than in encouraging the brothers. And their egos seemed to be bigger than the televangelists.

That mentality is a poisonous and insidious spiritual ditch, trap, pit. And those who think they can dance persistently, chronically delicately on the edge without falling in are likely to be quite wrong.

Sooner or later, one gets the impression that the only ones who are kosher enough to make heaven are those with the greatest warehouse of rock filled buckets.

I don't think God sees it that way AT ALL.

LUB BRO

I don't know if I pinged you to this startling one, or not:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2853399/posts?page=9

The Vatican, Spiritual Aliens & The Last Pope is HERE

I realize that the odds are slim that many will be awakened to the hazards presented there but it is love to give folks a chance regardless of the knives thrown at my heart therefrom. LOL.

The whole idea that fallen angels may well have a 'truer Gospel' than Jesus is rank blasphemy of the worst order.

to recognize the false teachers

The problem I have with this is that many Christians are so unfamiliar with the scriptures, and time with the Lord as HE instructs us, that they can swallow pretty much anything they're fed and not blink an eye.....at the same time the media, of all types, as well as all tech "toys" of communication keep ones mind constantly engaged, leaving little if any time to reason or use ones critical thinking skills.

Everything is "hooked up" to prepare and feed peoples minds with a steady stream of "being wired" up. There is no time given to reflection or thought.

When I leave work I see people have their phones up and in dialogue before they are even out the door! Breaks are full of folks "hooked up" to their phones...and you're expected to carry conversation with them while they Text! I actually had a customer who expected me to serve her while she chatted with her brother....when I said I'd wait til she was finished she got hostile! I was shocked!

My point is people are primed now and increasingly more to be dictated to.....in all forms of communication....and swallow pretty much anything they're fed. Those who are not are in the minority now.

EXPERIENCES taught you to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Impressive.

We shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bath water but neither do we drink the dirty bath water.

What is called a new openness, by allowing God to do whatever he wants AKA.... “don’t put God in a box” ....is really spiritual liberalism in disguise...... Certainly God has done many things in the past in unusual ways, often times not the way we would expect..... The issue is not can God do certain things but will He do them..... For He will never contradict His own word or principles but cooperate with it to accomplish His goals. ....So we must look for His ways that are conducive to His nature to be sure it is God.....

...... For if we attribute something to God when in fact it is not God, we have put Him in a box!

Interesting to read about the Lord allowing lying spirits in a prophets mouth as follows:

In the OT God warned of false prophets through the true ones....... But ‘the people rejected God’s true prophets’ so ‘the Lord would allow a lying spirit in a prophets mouth.’

I King 22:20-23...... “And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.

“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ ..... “The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’.... So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’.... And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.”

“Therefore look!.... The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.” ....also found in 2 Chron.18:21-22

and the Lord warns us:

2 Pet. 2:1-3..... “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber

I’m not sure I would condemn all forms of “hooked up” as you put it. This form of “hooked up” is IMHO a good thing. Those of us who are aware of the times we live in use these venues to stay “hooked up” to like minded. I believe these forms of staying “hooked up” also reach those who are looking for answers and clarification and can be used for support and communication. These forms of being “hooked up” are no different than any other community in that they can be used for good purposes and not so good. I personally find it a blessing to be able to stay “hooked up” and believe it will be increasingly more important as time goes on.

The theatrics should alert any true Spirit filled Christian to the charlatans who promote such nonsense.

But without them, you see, there would be no show.

I've been watching many videos of these and it's mind-boggling how people can believe in such antics which are on display before them. It's obvious people get caught up in the "show" because it's easily identified as being staged to do just that.

Also interesting is reading about those who simply fell backward on their own because they didn't want to appear the "oddball" on the stage. One guy said he simply waited till everybody started to get off the floor, and he followed suit. Same when they went down.

I laughed hard when I saw Benny throwing his jacket and people fell over for that! But the more I saw this mans videos the more apparent it becomes there's something quite sinister and evil about what he says and does....and for that I would not have a problem saying the "spirit" he claims is falling on these people is NOT the Holy Spirit of God but another which delights itself in seeing what fools he's making of these people.

Especially appalling was seeing people led around stage by these healers, 'on leashes' as they crawled on all fours, howling like crazed animals. What's worse is the audiences clapping and approval at this show of utter humiliation and debauchery!....One could easily say the audiance is worse for it's approval and cheering this on!

So no wonder the scriptures tell us of their final doom!

2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Galatians 5:22-26 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1 Thessalonians 5:14-22 14 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

Here are examples of the Spirit filled life, since I did not get any answers to my question of what that entails.

It was at that point that most in the church could sense the Holy Spirit leave. You ask about the “thousands”? I can personally attest to “thousands” who, with full faith, went up to “get healed” and not once did we witness a true healing.

If they felt the HS leave, why didn't they leave, also, I wonder. No one knows whether one has 'full faith' . If they were, why would they seek another?

It became all about him. I can attest without reservation that Hinn is a charlatan who measures his success by the amount of money he brings in.

I believe you and that it's all about 'him' and not us. No one should make what he does a reason for their own failure.

At one point he tearfully confessed to have gone off track and for about six months was back to Biblical teaching but then again drifted off and hasn’t been anything but a charlatan since.

All we can do is hope he gets back 'to his first love'.

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