[grey_whiskers]

This is a good, and objective, link about John Wimber, his teachings and activities: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm

Feh. I looked up the site and found that it said that C.S. Lewis wasn't going to heaven; that Bonhoeffer was heretical (it's funny that in Googling the quote, I find several quotes from Bonhoeffer's books, each illustrating a point held to be heretical, cut-and-pasted at a number of "fundamentalist" sites...without acknowledging or responding to requests either for the original text, or the surrounding paragraphs. One of the people doing this is bragging about an M.Div and a PhD. BFD.)

In addition, the site criticizes Larry Burkett (financial advisor) and says - Though Burkett's books and seminars dealing with finances contained a few Scriptural principles (as well as many worldly insights for handling money), we believe that these seminars, in particular, may have been the latest satanic "wile" to entrap historical separatists-fundamentalists in the neo-evangelical net.

The site criticizes Billy Graham and his son Franklin:

Early in June 1996, Franklin Graham, interviewed on CNBC, declared, "[W]hether it's the Roman Catholic Church ... the Orthodox Church ...we'd all agree ... it's Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for sin." That statement was tragically deceptive. Could Franklin, like his father, be unaware that Catholicism and Orthodoxy, while using the same Biblical words as evangelicals, mean something else? Franklin Graham told the Indianapolis Star (6/3/99) that his father's longstanding ecumenical alliance with the Catholic Church and all other denominations, "was one of the smartest things his father ever did." The charismatic Charisma magazine in 10/95 contained a 7-page article on Franklin Graham. They quoted him as saying, "I thank God for the warmth I see within many of the charismatic churches -- their love for the Lord and love for the scriptures. ..." He also said, "Probably (Samaritan's Purse) largest base of support comes from the charismatic community." He has referred to "Mother" Teresa as an "example of the woman God uses" (4/1/99, Calvary Contender).

The site goes on to trash a large number of other people, including (for example) James Dobson, Tim LaHaye, Max Lucado, Frank Peretti, Josh McDowell, Jerry Falwell, and Martin Luther. And particular attention is made to whenever anyone has anything to do with (*spit*) Catholics!

I find it interesting that in your earlier conversation, you cut-and-pasted yourself directly from this site about Job being the only person afflicted by a demon when it wasn't their fault (paraphrasing, more or less), despite the fact that I was able to come up with multiple Old Testament examples off of the top of my head, and Quix later gave a New Testament example.

So if they get the facts so wrong, and spend most of their time attacking other Christians, why give them the time of day?

Cheers!

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

!ABSOLUTELY INDEED!
ABSOLUTELY INDEED TO THE MAX.

I gave up with Dave Hunt and Hanegraph long ago. Their spirit just didn't leave my spirit feeling at peace. They seemed far more interested in rock throwing than in encouraging the brothers. And their egos seemed to be bigger than the televangelists.

That mentality is a poisonous and insidious spiritual ditch, trap, pit. And those who think they can dance persistently, chronically delicately on the edge without falling in are likely to be quite wrong.

Sooner or later, one gets the impression that the only ones who are kosher enough to make heaven are those with the greatest warehouse of rock filled buckets.

I don't think God sees it that way AT ALL.

LUB BRO

I don't know if I pinged you to this startling one, or not:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2853399/posts?page=9

The Vatican, Spiritual Aliens & The Last Pope is HERE

I realize that the odds are slim that many will be awakened to the hazards presented there but it is love to give folks a chance regardless of the knives thrown at my heart therefrom. LOL.

The whole idea that fallen angels may well have a 'truer Gospel' than Jesus is rank blasphemy of the worst order.

[boatbums]

I find it interesting that in your earlier conversation, you cut-and-pasted yourself directly from this site about Job being the only person afflicted by a demon when it wasn't their fault (paraphrasing, more or less), despite the fact that I was able to come up with multiple Old Testament examples off of the top of my head, and Quix later gave a New Testament example. So if they get the facts so wrong, and spend most of their time attacking other Christians, why give them the time of day?

Your "paraphrasing" is a little off. The quote said:

Wimber's doctrine of Demonology was thoroughly unscriptural; he saw demons behind many physical illnesses, and most emotional problems, entering into people, both lost and saved, in varying degrees, either for "possession" or "oppression," so as to control all or some aspects of their lives. "There is no biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. [And the power of Satan to enter and "possess" souls uninvited; i.e., at the whim of the demon, was ended at Christ's resurrection.] The only case in the Bible of a person who suffered from an illness caused by Satan without being demon possessed, is that of Job" (Masters, p. 86).

But even then, Satan had to secure permission from God, which would indicate that Satan and his demons have no power to inflict illnesses in the ordinary course of events. To treat illnesses on the basis of a demon needing to be expelled from a particular organ, as Wimber taught, is an idea derived from pagan religious cults and/or the priestcraft of Rome, not from the Bible. Believers will certainly do battle with the wiles and temptations wrought by Satan, "but nowhere in the New Testament is temptation resisted by a process of commanding demons to loose their hold or leave a Christian's mind or body. Satan is resisted by being denied success in the temptation. Or if he mounts an attack of depressive suggestions, he is resisted as the believer strives to keep hold of the comfort and promises of God's Word" (Masters, p. 92). (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm

I don't blame you for not liking the author's views towards Catholicism, but they gave direct quotes from Wimber as well as personal witness testimony of his workings. I thought you would want to read about John Wimber to get a balanced look at a person you admitted you knew nothing about. I find it curious that some here are so gung-ho about him and his ministry that they totally neglect to see the many ways that he failed to uphold the Gospel as well as the truths from Holy Scripture. He was also either naive or knowingly advancing New Age philosophy within his own ministry. From the same link:

Wimber was on Renovaré's "Board of Reference" -- Renovaré is an international, New Age, ecumenical organization that emanates from the religious traditions of Quakerism, whose message is that today's Church is missing out on some wonderful spiritual experiences that can only be found by studying and practicing the "meditative" and "contemplative" lifestyle "of early Christianity." In actuality, Renovaré espouses the use of the early pagan traditions of guided imagery and visualization, astral projection, "Zen" prayer techniques for meditation (i.e., Buddhism), and Jungian psychology (i.e., a blend of Eastern mysticism and Roman Catholic mystical spiritual tradition, which nicely fits the New Age model), all as means of obtaining "personal spiritual renewal" in the lives of believers. (For a more detailed analysis of Renovaré and the teachings of its co-directors, psychologist Richard Foster and William Vaswig, see Media Spotlight's Special Report of March, 1992: "Renovaré: Taking Leave of One's Senses.")