Saul And The Charismatics...

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

[pastorbillrandles]

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

[caww]

Thank you again smvoice...your posts are well received and informative...keep up the good work! I’m also saving them.

[caww]

All these counterfiet gifts, practiced by many cults, false religious teachers as well as the Pentacoastal/Charismatic movements, and those who adhere to their teachings, know the 'uniting' these gifts bring among them.....it makes them feel significant and important... and something which they share a comradery about....it is "common ground" which connects them and seemingly rises them above this world into "heavenly places" ...much as the New Age Spirituality practices and beliefs claim today....different means but the end result is identical.....a strong emphasis on the "experiences" and the "feelings" which come and "believing" these confirm they are ok in the eyes of God.

..... Note I didn't say Jesus connects them because it is primarily 'the expereinces' they have as individuals, the sharing of and participation in as a group which unite them....they "expereince" a sense of being set apart by what they perceive is from God....and these practices characterize the 'Counterfeit Revival' currently showing it's face more and more.

Certainly this applies to the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. It has rightly been called.... 'the glue of the End Times Apostasy.'... The only protection from it is to obey the Bible and separate from it.

The Bible clearly warns:

"Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).

I have said before this world is ripe for signs and wonders because "faith" is no longer coming from reading and studying The Word of God...it's now based on these various "experiences"....rather than THE Faith which comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God"...not by signs and wonders with Jesus's name attached in order to qualify them.

[metmom]

Another keeper......

[metmom]

The only incidence of someone being slain by the Spirit involving the church and believers is recorded in the Bible in Acts 5 and I doubt many people want a repeat of THAT.

Acts 5 5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.

7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” 9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.

[caww]

It’s becoming more obvious in this day and age that strict adherence to scripture in context with an understanding of who the writers were writing to is paramount to avoiding the deception we have been warned is coming in these last days.

I sooo agree with you on this matter...and it's more than important, it's critical in understanding what the scriptures are saying in order to understand the truth as it's being presented.

This does require more than flipping thru verses in a "word" study. Too many do that in order to support their belief.....God will use them not only to encourage and guide us but to correct the errors of our beliefs when we are searching for truth...the key is do we want the truth or do we want popcorn Christianity jumping from one scripture to another.

The fact is the movements spreading across our nation and the world now are based on "experiences" and touted as the NEW REVIVAL...when in fact those who are caught up in this will find it's heading decidedly toward them falling under the anti-Christ and his prophet miracles and wonders which will be showcased.

[caww]

For Post 740 ....author is from ‘Let us reason’ website.http://www.letusreason.org/pent14%20.htm

[smvoice]

First, thank you both, caww and mm, for you kind posts. God has given us the armor we need to STAND. And He hasn't made it difficult to access it. Once His timelines for man are clearly seen, the rest follows with ease. I'll tell you this, Hebrews is another transition Book. But that's for another discussion.

About this "slain in the Spirit"...I'll tell you a story, since it's kinda slow right now. Cynical Bear, you shared your story about Benny Hinn the other day, and I was particularly touched by it. Thank you for sharing that.

Let me share with you guys where I came out of: Family Worship Center, Baton Rouge. That would be Jimmy Swaggart's "church" of prosperity, healing, tongues, miracles, and other sundry outside activities on his part. I was saved before I attended his services, a neighbor wanted me to go and just "feel" the love of the Holy Spirit in that place. So I went. And as young a babe as I was in Christ, I knew something wasn't right. I did not have the biblical knowledge to tell me why, just something wasn't RIGHT...so I kept going, hoping that through Bible Study there, I would "get it" and would understand what God was "accomplishing" at that church. Months went by, and I began to get very uneasy. WHERE WAS THE BIBLE STUDY? WHERE WAS THE GOSPEL THAT SAVED ME? WHEN WERE THEY GOING TO PUT THEIR LAYING ON OF HANDS ASIDE AND PREACH GOD'S WORD, other than Mark 16 and Corinthians?

So I started searching for a place where I could fellowship with other babes in Christ, where, as a babe, I could learn the Word of God. See, Swaggart's church teaches that tongues and signs are for mature Christians, who are ready for the MEAT of God's Word. If you don't have that , then you are a babe, who still needs to feed on the MILK of God, His Word. COMPLETELY BACKWARDS.

One Wednesday I went into a little church in Baton Rouge. Very small, very plain. It was a non-denominational Grace Bible Study Church. I was surprised when I entered and in the front of the church, there was a podium, a King James Bible, and a chalkboard. With about 50 people in attendance.

The rest is history. I'll tell you about the chalkboard in another post. It was to LAY OUT GOD'S TIMELINES in the Bible so we could SEE and UNDERSTAND His plan from Scripture. And as it turned out, the lesson they were on was the Book of Acts.

There ARE miracles. God sent me to a place where I learned His Word. Where I could discern truth from a lie, not because of anything I do, but because of HIS WORD. And His promise of 2 Tim. 2:15. That was 1983. And not a day has gone by that I've not given Him all the glory for His leading me FROM carnality and deceit to the truth of His grace for us. This is why I will STAND and defend the gospel of the grace of God until the day He takes me. And will continue to preach the word, be instant, in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering AND DOCTRINE. I've SEEN the lies all dressed up and beautiful to look at, but inside they are rotted with greed, deceit, and vanity.

Now, you can pick yourselves up off the floor. Yes, I said Jimmy Swaggart....:)

[CynicalBear]

Not laughable at all. I’m thinking that each one of us have something similar. Mine was Benny Hinn and watching him get full of himself. I think its God’s way of leading us through experiences to strengthen us and be able to discern. I think without those experiences we would not be as strong in our STAND. Its one of the ways we become mature in our walk. We are going to need those experiences to recognize the false teachers that will only increase as time gets closer to the end.

[smvoice]

I tell you Cynical Bear, that is EXACTLY why I believe I was allowed to be in Jimmy Swaggart’s church. I KNEW something wasn’t right, but I did not have enough Scripture yet to tell my WHY. And I soon realized I was NEVER going to get enough Scripture there to tell me ANYTHING. THey were too busy healing, speaking in tongues, prophesying and filling each other with the “Holy Spirit” to have time to fool with something like the Bible. Who wants that when the other is so 5 senses based? ME, that’s who. And YOU. And metmom, and countless others. It is precisely because of what I observed there, that I am as strong in God’s word and His word alone, as I am today. And as anti-wonders, signs and miracles for the Church the Body of Christ as I am. I’ll bet there aren’t 20 people in that entire organization that have gone beyond Mark 16 or 1 Corinthians for their “bible study”. I thank God for that experience.

[Quix]

Sooooooo . . .

If my understanding remotely matches the description . . .

your EXPERIENCES

taught you to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Impressive.

[smvoice]

No Quix. My desire to study God’s Word and how to rightly divide the word of truth taught me the bathwater was not bathwater at all, but sewerage, with Mr. Bubbles added to make it pretty.

[smvoice]

You are the perfect person to ask this question. IF you decide to answer it.

Last weekend I was surfing the channels and came across Donnie Swaggart, Jimmy's son, preaching at Family Worship Center. I decided to watch it, since we have been having this discussion here for a couple of weeks. Just to see what, if anything, has changed in the pentecostal/charismatic movement. Nothing like getting it from the horse's mouth, if a person wants to know something. Anyway, his ENTIRE sermon was on being filled with the Holy Spirit, with signs accompanying. I'm not kidding you, his ENTIRE sermon. There was not a SINGLE reference to the Gospel of the Grace of God. There was not a SINGLE reference to spreading the good news of the finished work of Christ. NOTHING BUT the filling of the Holy Spirit, and describing to those who had not already received, HOW TO receive it. ("It comes from the pit of your stomach. You completely relax and let your mouth relax. And the language will start. You may not know what you are saying, but someone somewhere knows.") O.K. so people start coming up the aisles. And he asks the "sponsors" to stand behind those who were seeking the filling. ("Men with men. And women with women."). So far, everything I had witnessed in 1983 was still happening.

But then, something very UNUSUAL was said by "brother Donnie". "If anyone who has been filled but feels they have become less effective, you may be in need of a REFILLING of the Holy Spirit. I'm asking anyone who wants a REFILLING of the Holy Spirit to come forward now."

WHAT????? A REFILLING? Where does THAT come from?

I tell you what it sounds VERY similar to, QUix: the RC Mass. For a REFILLING of Christ in you.

You all are one "miracle" or "wonder" away from seeing visions, not of Mary telling you to follow her Son, but from "Christ" telling you to follow those who have visions, and dreams, and prophecies, and miracles, and fillings and refillings. You know, just to make you "stronger" for the work ahead.

I'll ask you again, since you did not answer the last time, do you think you are going through the tribulation, and need these things in order to endure to the end?

[Quix]

I think Billy Graham is right.

We all need refilled daily.

We all leak.

There are some Scriptures alluding to such a construction on reality but I don’t recall what they are at the moment.

I’m sure you didn’t need Donnie to maintain a death-grip on your construction on such fantasies about the ‘Spirit-filled’ life.

[Quix]

I think

JD FARAQ PRE-TRIB LINKS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOg07PdJUM&feature=related

I don’t know if you are familiar with J.D. Faraq on You Tube, or not. He’s a Palestenian Calvary Chapel pastor in Hawaii. Has a great series on the Pre-Trib Rapture. As does Chuck Missler.

Are best on Pre-Trib and I’m inclined to agree with them.

However, I don’t think anyone has it all figured out and however God works it out is His business. I don’t plan on letting how it happens hazard my faith, regardless.

[smvoice]

Quix, he was NOT talking about the need to be refilled daily. He was talking about having hands laid on those who had already supposedly received the filling of the Holy Spirit, with signs accompanying, to be RE-laid on and Re-FILLED with signs accompanying. I was watching this unfold. People walking up, and falling down. AGAIN. Like an addict in need of a fix. I thought that once a person was “filled” and spoke in tongues, they were filled. Not like a gas-tank that runs out and needs to be refilled. Tongues are tongues, or do they come and go?

[Quix]

OH, MY

Wellllllll!

That’s suuuuuuuuch EXTENSIVE

justification and rationalization for

AT LEAST

another dozen buckets of rocks.

Carry on! By all means, Carry on!

/s

[metmom]

Sooooooo . . . If my understanding remotely matches the description . . . your EXPERIENCES taught you to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And are you not basing your acceptance of doctrine based on YOUR experiences??????

I find it exceedingly ironic that you should appear to be criticizing someone for doing something, or believing certain things based on their experiences, when in fact, the whole pentecostal/charismatic movement is built on experience over Scripture.

It's *experience* which is used to justify the slain in the Spirit phenomena, it's *experience* which is used to support the theology of a prayer tongue and that it's more effective than praying in any native language, it's *experience* which is used to justify holy laughter, it's *experience* which is used to excuse people making animal noises, it's *experience* which is used to allow tongues without interpretation, it's *experience* which is used to believe everything that someone claims is from God really is from God without exercising the discernment of an ice cube to determine if it's so, it's *experience* which is used to justify the teaching that tongues is THE evidence of being baptized (filled) in the Spirit, and the list goes on.

There is no Scripture to support most of what is taught in Pentecostalism today, and yet it's accepted based on the only thing left, experience (in the end becoming the traditions of men), and the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes on when anyone questions it and provides solid Scriptural refutation of it.

BTW, where's yours in support of prayer language, slain in the Spirit, tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Spirit?

[metmom]

I think Billy Graham is right. We all need refilled daily. We all leak. There are some Scriptures alluding to such a construction on reality but I don’t recall what they are at the moment.

Well, then start thinking or looking because if you don't or can't provide Scripture, than you are expressing nothing more than your opinion. And we've already had that.

I’m sure you didn’t need Donnie to maintain a death-grip on your construction on such fantasies about the ‘Spirit-filled’ life.

OK, now this brings up an interesting point....

Just what IS your definition of a Spirit filled life? What are the evidences of it?

[metmom]

Tongues are tongues, or do they come and go?

I have a friend who got in the charismatic movement and she was talking about when she got filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues and then was talking later about losing the gift of tongues and then getting it back. So, I'd have to say that yes, this is a teaching of the movement. And this was an AoG church.

[metmom]

IIRC, There’s a case or 3 in Christ’s ministry in the Gospels and maybe one or two in Paul’s. I don’t have the refs and don’t care to bother searching them out. I know there are at least some examples in the NT.

I don’t have the refs and don’t care to bother searching them out. = There aren't any......