when he talks about his angels being sent out (by him upon his return) to gather his ownRead this and tell me what your interpretation of it is:
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
So, when God says clearly and unmistakably that The Lord Himself will descend from Heaven, what exactly do you get from that? What is your personal interpretation of that? Can you post the portion of the verse that states that the angels will catch those in Christ up? Because this passage only speaks of the voice of the archangel. So I really need to know where this Scripture tells us that the angels will come and get Church-age believers and take them back to Heaven.
I'm really interested to see your personal interpretation of that verse and where you see angels coming to get believers in Christ. Can you help me out here?
And then, there is the discrepancy between the fact that In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24, the angels gather those who have become saved during the Tribulation after Christ' s arrival to earth. This is a huge problem for post-tribbers. Hopefully you have an answer from your own personal interpretation.
after they had first cleared the sons of the evil one out of the earth. The ones left behind are the righteous who are then later taken up to meet Jesus in the air.
Can you post the supporting Scriptures for that?
So, when God says clearly and unmistakably that The Lord Himself will descend from Heaven, what exactly do you get from that? What is your personal interpretation of that? Can you post the portion of the verse that states that the angels will catch those in Christ up? Because this passage only speaks of the voice of the archangel. So I really need to know where this Scripture tells us that the angels will come and get Church-age believers and take them back to Heaven.
First of all, your dispensationalist beliefs have divvied up believers into several groups. There is no indication
anywhere in scripture that a "Church-age believer" is any different than anyone else belonging to Christ from Adam onward to the end of the age. Those to whom Jesus spoke in Matthew 13 and 24, reminding them to beware of those claiming to know of a limited, restricted return of Christ, reminding them to persevere to the end and be saved, are part of the elect, the children of the kingdom, the wheat sown by God in the field which is the world. All those who are saved, who are justified by the sacrifice of Jesus, are members of the same family of faith of which Paul said Abraham was the father, are part of the bride of Christ, are members of the same body of Christ, his church, the called-out ones.
Second, it's strange that you can look at two descriptions of the same event with their major overlapping details (the Lord descending from heaven/appearing in the sky, the archangel/angels, the trumpet/the blast of the trumpet of God, the gathering of all believers both alive and dead (presumably from throughout the earth)/the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other) and somehow conclude that must be referring to two separate events. These are nowhere in scripture contrasted as two separate events, but your eschatology requires it, in spite of the Lord's own explanation of exactly what that parable of the field meant: the field is the world, the wheat are the elect, the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the evil one, the harvest is the end of the world, the reapers are the angels.
I'm really interested to see your personal interpretation of that verse and where you see angels coming to get believers in Christ. Can you help me out here?
As Jesus said, "And he [the Son of Man] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Note that it is
your eschatology, not the scripture, that prevents you from accepting that this gathering up to Jesus in the clouds in Matthew 13/24 is exactly the same event as that described in Corinthians and Thessalonians. That is because you have already concluded, without scriptural foundation, that since "church-age" believers wouldn't go through the tribulation this couldn't be referring to them, in spite of Jesus warning believers long in advance, in order that they not lose heart when faced with these trials, that they would experience persecution to the point of death. Again, it's your eschatology that has shaped your view to the point that virtually twin descriptions between Matthew 13/24 and Paul's in Corinthians/Thess must be taken to be descriptions of virtually identical, though separate events.
And then, there is the discrepancy between the fact that In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24, the angels gather those who have become saved during the Tribulation after Christ' s arrival to earth. This is a huge problem for post-tribbers. Hopefully you have an answer from your own personal interpretation.
Again, it is your eschatology, not scripture, that considers those of Matthew 24 to be a different set of people from those of I Thess 4. Furthermore, you mischaracterize Jesus's description of the events in Matthew 24. Jesus says that the children of the kingdom will be gathered to the Son of Man when he makes his appearance in the sky at the end of the age after the children of the evil one have been cleared out. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that contradicts what Paul in either of his letters says he has by the Lord's own word about what is going to happen.
And you're overlooking what both Peter and Paul say about these events occurring on the Day of the Lord.
Peter: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.--II Peter 2:10-13
So Peter was talking to a group of believers who would be around up until the final divine denouement. Are you saying, 'Well, uh, these weren't "church-age believers." These must be Jewish believers who don't get the special, escape-the-tribulation package.' But Peter nowhere in either letter makes such a distinction. He writes to those strangers scattered throughout many countries who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation that is to be revealed in the last time, who, for a while, are undergoing a trial of their faith.
Paul (just after he told them about the return of the Lord): For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.--I Thess 5:2
So here Paul in much the same language alludes to the same event as Peter above. And, like Peter above, he acknowledges that believers will be around to see it and experience it as well as the trouble leading up to it, hence his admonition to watch and be sober.
Paul (just before reiterating his previous words about the return of Jesus for his believers but telling them that they will stand fast even when confronted by the one working powers, signs, and lying wonders): We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. --II Thess 1:3-10
If you're going to maintain that this flaming vengeance poured out on the persecutors on the Day of the Lord when Jesus comes to be gloried in his saints and admired by them is something subsequent to and not coincident with the return of Jesus for his saints, then you have to explain why both Peter and Paul are encouraging the readers of their letters to stay strong in their persecution and to hasten that day of the Lord's appearance without a single mention of "Oh, hey, but you're not going to go through trouble and tribulation and persecution during the time the one working powers, signs, and lying wonders, but come back at the end of it all for a special appearance with Jesus."
Both Paul and Peter, like Jesus, used the final triumphant return of Jesus and his giving recompense to those persecuting the believers as a means to give comfort and hope to those believers suffering for their faith in Jesus. As Paul had said, "Hey, don't be troubled by reports that it's already happened. When it does, it's going to happen to
all of us, the living and the dead--and here's something special, never before revealed: when it happens, those of us who are living will be instantly transformed." Similarly Jesus had said not to be fooled by those claiming a limited, secret return. He said, "When I come back, EVERY eye is going to see it and the evil ones are going to realize exactly what's happening and then get totally nailed."
Jesus, Peter, and Paul talked about the Day of the Lord when Jesus would return for his own, a day of fire and burning when evil would be defeated and the believers saved. Jesus and Paul gave more specific details about the believers being gathered to him in the sky at that time and Paul gave the really specific detail about the dead rising first and the transformation of those still living at the time, but they all said to watch out, to hold fast to the truth, and to be ready.
And the really strange thing appears to be that those who hold to a pre-trib belief are telling those who say nothing different than what Jesus, Paul, and Peter say about standing true in persecution, even to the point of death, awaiting his return and conquering of his enemies and their persecutors, "Hey, you don't believe that a special group of people called the "church-age believers" are going to get a special pass to escape a specific time of suffering and death, and your refusal to believe this is the shibboleth by which your heart of unbelief in the word of God is revealed," a means test that is nowhere discussed in any scripture. That's almost as senseless as saying, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved--but actually your faith is a gift and is an after-the-fact-of-justification sign of your prior unconditional election and you who
do die of persecution and you who get to escape the tribulation and you who commit the persecution all do so inescapably by the express will of God decided by God, and antecedent to any foreknowledge, before the foundations of the earth, all for the greater glory of God."