Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.
That's correct.
In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."
... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.
Are you confused?
Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?
1. The Historic View.
This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.
1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:
"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."
It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.
2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).
In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:
"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."
The difference couldn't be farther apart.
Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.
Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.
Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.
In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.
My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!
For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.
Yashua is coming to Earth forever to be with Him. He’s coming here to rule. The whole Rapture thing is that if you don’t believe in it you’re not Christian and are doomed. It’s stupid to chastise those Christians that do not believe in either a pre-trib, mid-trib or post trib. They all have their own camps and ridicule those that don’t believe their position on it. Again, it’s not when Yashua comes is THAT HE COMES.
SOP. LOL.
Sigh.
INDEED.
You err greatly. You have disregarded Daniel 9:25-26, which appears directly before the verse you quote, but which has a direct impact on your interpretation.
In verse 26, it is clear that after the 62 week period ( 62 times 7 years/week, plus verse 25, the seven weeks before that--another 49 years) the Messiah is CUT OFF and has nothing. That means killed.
It is clear that the Messiah is cut off PRIOR to the 70th week, thus JEsus CANNOT be the prince of the 70th week, at the cross, as you assert, or otherwise.
An historical time frame is given by Gabriel to Daniel in verses 25 and 26, that from the time of the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks(Daniel 9:25). In Nehemiah 2:5, the decree is given by Artaxerxes Longimanus in 445 BC(the 20th year of his reign). The 69 years equals 483 Biblical years; a month in the Bible is 30 days(see Genesis 7 and 8,and also Revelation 12);thus 173,880 days.
We use a solar, or calendar year that is 365.2422 days in length. Dividing that into 173,880 days, we get 476.06766 calendar years, or 476 years plus 24.7 days. From 445 BC to 32 AD,is 476 years. The extra 25 days gets us into the month of Nisan, which is the springtime month of Passover. Since our solar, calendar year is 365.2422 days,thus we are looking 476 years and 25 days from the edict until the Messiah is cut off. That brings us to 32 AD.
The rest of Daniel 9:26 says that "the people of the prince that is to come". i.e., a future event is presented, it is these people who will destroy the city and the sanctuary. This occurred in 70 AD historically,and the people of the prince to come is thus identified as being of Rome, which is NOT the same prince of Daniel 9:25, who is Messiah the Prince.
The only figure historically that fulfills Daniel Chapter 9:25-26, in the timeline that makes any sense is Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, the Messiah of Israel.
That you confuse the two princes is not acceptable and serves to mislead many. You share a doctrine with many other sects, including Jehovah Witnesses--who have historically misinterpreted Scripture on many priven occasions. yet persist still in their error.
I encourage you to explore Scripture further. Jesus Himself spoke of a Rapture in the Gospels--this was not an invention of Paul.
And by the way, welcome to Free Republic.
Not what I expected. It looks more like a Knesset HUUMMM!
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
than a temple to worship YHvH.
I Thes 4: 17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
caught up = HARPAZO
This word derivation is used twelve other times in the KJV New Testament. Most of these uses have to do with the physical taking away of someone or something from another. Never do they disappear from sight.
Two other times this word is used it implies that the person at hand has disappeared from sight, however, neither time is either of the people actually shot off into outer space - never to return.
Example 1: Philip meets the eunuch and is HARPOZA’d out of sight, but really walks on earth in the Gaza strip afterwards. Proof text:
Acts 8: 39-40. “And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip , that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. BUT PHILIP WAS FOUND AT AZOTUS: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.”
Example 2: Paul speaks about the experience of being HARPAZO’d, but he is not sure if it is in the flesh or out of the flesh. Proof text:
II Cor 12: 3,4 “And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell : God knoweth ;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”
Suffice it to say, Paul continues on afterwards to complete his missionary journeys ON EARTH.
Therefore, using Scripture as our basis, it would be aberrant and sloppy to assign a shooting-off-into-outer-space type definition to the word HARPAZO in II Thes 4: 17.
Certainly, I would not be so careless as to REVERSE Jesus Christ for the Devil, just to satisfy my dogmatic apetite over it.
I advise all to proceed with the same caution because the Cross is at sake. In essence, Dispensationalism is a denial of Christ’s atonement.
Beside, Jesus Himself said:
John 17: 15 “I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
Jesus’ prayer is still in effect for us today. No rapture. No escape.
I’m going to take compfort in His prayer.
In Christ Blessings, Amen.
Rashi was a medieval commentator on the Talmud. He was not a Biblical commentator.
The Talmud is not the word of God, nor is it the scripture of the Old Testament. It is a collection of traditions that makes VOID the Word of God. Jesus scolded the Pharisees over this very point.
Who said
“never to return?”
The Wedding customs of Israel at the time of Christ are quite illustrative on this score.
Putting words in our fingers is not much better than mangling Scripture!
“Revelation 11 is the rebuilt temple.”
Where does it say that? I think you have not told the truth here.
Revelation 11: 1, 2 “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”
NOWHERE in this text does it say anything about a ‘re-built’ temple as you so declare. This is a figment of your imagination.
In fact, John is given a measuring rod and asked to measure the temple itself. That implies that he was to measure the existing temple in Jerusalem in his day, not one future to us.
You have been caught with your pants down on this one!
Now, the important question:
Is it really worth it to purposely REVERSE Jesus for the Devil, just to hang onto this falsehood notion that you have created and presented here? I don’t get it.
My prayers are for you.
In Christ.
Thanks! I’ll check it out!
This is a completely incorrect reading of Daniel 9:24-27. The context demonstrates it is NOT the Christ that is being referred to, but Antichrist. But, this argument has been made millions of times — I won’t change anyone’s mind here. So, blessings to all my Brothers and Sisters who look for HIS RETURN for HIS PEOPLE. I think if we can all agree on that, we do well!
Hmmmm, that is a very good point.
You know a great deal. I appreciate the information!
Thank you!
“Did the Romans confirm a seven-year peace contract between Israel and the nations?”
I presume you that are speaking about the Covenant in Daniel’s 70th Week, 9:27a:
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease ...”
Notice that it says NOTHING about a ‘seven year peace deal’, as you so declare. Aboslutely zero. So, again, this is merely another figment of your imagination.
What Covenant is Daniel talking about in verse 27?
... a promised one from the Old Testament?
... or, one that was never promised - but is supposedly future (to us)?
a) Before Daniel’s prophecy, God promises a Covenant with Judah and Israel, ... Jeremiah 31: 31:
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”
b) During the 70th Week, in the very midst of the week, Jesus Himself confirms that same Covenant, ... Matthew 26: 28:
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
c) After its fulfillment, the epistle writer reiterates the confirmation of this Covenant, … Hebrews 9: 15:
“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”
So, clearly there was a Covenant already promised to Israel and Judah in-place by God, and fulfilled in Jesus Christ during the 70th Week!
Therefore, since the Covenant of Daniel’s 70th Week was at the Cross of Christ, there can be no ‘future-to-us’ 70th Week, nor a ‘future Rapture’ for that matter either.
However, note that the dispensationalists must totally fabricate their ‘future covenant with Antichrist’ completely OUTSIDE of Holy Writ.
Another additional significant point here. God makes a Covenant with man hundreds of times in the Bible. NEVER does Satan make a covenant with man.
Therefore, those who force a ‘seven year peace deal by the antichrist’ into Daniel’s 70th Week impute a horribly aberrent and sloppy reading of God’s Word.
Again, the important question:
Is this fake ‘seven year peace deal’ really worth REVERSING Jesus for the Devil, just to preserve your ego here?
I pray that you will repent for your Disppensational sin.
In Christ Jesus, Amen.
You sound like a broken record. No one is REVERSING JESUS FOR THE DEVIL here. It is well understood that the AntiChrist will be deceiving many, including the Jews, BY APPEARING TO BE, SAY and DO what the ‘Messiah’ was perceived to do, when he would come. You ask ‘Since when has Satan made a covenant with Man?’ - THAT’S THE POINT OF THE ANTICHRIST - do appear as God-like. Why do you think God is going to allow him to perform actual miracles? To deceive those who will be deceived.
One other point I see a few spout here, including you, is that this is just something that has come about in the past 160 or so years so it MUST BE EVIL. Um, No. Why do you think, in Daniel 12, that Daniel is told to seal up the scrolls, until the end, when those for whom it is intended will be given understanding. God has specifically and Biblically stated that there are things reserved only for us in the end of days to know and understand.
One Dispensational argument says that the ‘he’ for verse 27 is the same throughout the entire verse, and since the second half of this verse deals with the ‘overspreading of abominations’, then this must be the ‘antichrist’.
However, such an argument excludes context. If one were to apply that same logic to the previous passage, verse 26, then one would have a conflict, because the first half of the verse is clearly the Messiah, and the second half of the verse is the ‘people of the prince’.
Let’s look at this:
26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (A) be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (B) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27: And he (A) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (A) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (B) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Note that both of these verses, 26 and 27, are CONJUNCTIVE (e.g. two complete sentences, with two different subjects, joined together by the conjunctive ‘and’) in their construct.
So, the first half of the conjunctive deals with the Messiah (A), and the second half of the conjunctive deals with a completely different subject, e.g. the ‘people of the prince’ (B).
Therefore to be consistent, one would expect each verse to resemble an A-B, A-B construct.
Dispensationalism violates this Scriptural pattern by using an A-B, B-B construct!
Actually this is fun.
I enjoy replying and you will have to be a bit more patient as the moderator is taking the necessary time before he posts my replies.
Neither Philip nor Paul left the earth after their HARPAZO experience, whatever that was.
Scripture is clear on that. End of story.
The Talmud is not the word of God, nor is it the scripture of the Old Testament. It is a collection of traditions that makes VOID the Word of God. Jesus scolded the Pharisees over this very point.
But incredibility ignorant. Rashi is one of the greatest commentator What I cited was from his Seek YHvH in His WORD. Interesting.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
on the Tanach: The WORD of G-d.
commentary on Daniel 9:27.
“No one is REVERSING JESUS FOR THE DEVIL here.”
Oh really?
Apparently you did not read the lead post for this thread very carefully. Please go back and compare the Puritan’s Bible (1599 Geneva) foonotes to the Modernist interpretation (1978 Ryrie).
Again, the Modernists REVERSED Jesus at the Cross to a future-to-us Devil. This had never been done before Darby.
This is a DOCUMENTED FACT.
I pray that you will repent of your dispensational sin.
Lovingly, In Christ.
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