Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.
That's correct.
In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."
... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.
Are you confused?
Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?
1. The Historic View.
This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.
1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:
"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."
It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.
2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).
In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:
"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."
The difference couldn't be farther apart.
Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.
Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.
Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.
In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.
My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!
For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.
Wow, changing fonts and colors. Must make it true, I guess. /s
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (John 1:1-5)
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
Yep, denial of Scripture, also known as the Word of God, is denial of Christ, and will send a person to hell.
So when you die, at your judgment, are you going to tell Jesus I believed in scripture or are you going to tell him I believed in you?
Well, considering that when the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, He referred to Christ as the "Word", I would say that denial of that "Word" would create a problem for those who do it.
After all Jesus did not write one word of the Bible. It is the inspired word of God but, Jesus never put pen to paper.
Do you believe Jesus when He said:
“I and the Father are one.”
Was Jesus telling the truth or lying when He made that statement? And if you choose to believe that Jesus told the truth there, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and they are one, do you still want to stick with the denial that Christ wrote the Bible?
Who is the Word?
It ain’t scripture. The Word is Christ.
***
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (John 1:1-5)
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
***
Yep, denial of Scripture, also known as the Word of God, is denial of Christ, and will send a person to hell.
Jesus is the Word. Scripture is inspired by God but is NOT Jesus. You do understand the difference don’t you?
Which jot or tittle in Scripture is not the Word of God?
Scripture is the word of God but it is not the Word. Jesus Christ is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (John 1:1-5)
We would have everything of Jesus even if the Bible had never been written. After all he did tell the Apostles to go and preach to all nations.
He did not tell them to carry a book since the New Testament which is the testament to Jesus had not yet been written.
Well, not really. I go by what the Holy Spirit wrote, not what may seem logical to my fallen human mind. And then there's this:
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. (Psalm 138:2)
So now we also see that God magnifies His word to the level of His name.
So not only does God call Jesus the Word of God, He also exalts His Word above His own name. And you don't think there is an eternal price to pay for man to deny any part of it?
By the way, which parts of Scripture have you determined to be optional?
“During this CHURCH AGE, we are all believers, both Jew and Greek, but as Romans 11 so well points out, the promises remain for the Jews in the Millennial Reign.”
Answer:
Ye err here.
Romans 11 says nothing about a ‘Millenial Reign’. Zero!
Neither, does the Bible say that the Church Age is ‘temporary’. Again Zero!
In fact, the only future time reference that Romans 11 speaks about is in verse 36:
“For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.”
In this context, Paul is concluding everything he says about Jesus Christ in Romans 11 is ‘for ever’, ... not ‘temporary’ or ‘conditional’ as you say.
There are no parts of scripture that are optional. And you know that. Are you just being silly?
Okay the Psalm, written by God? Thy word above all thy name: What you God says is above all. Not a book.
“For God so loved the world the world, he sent a book.”
“What was the point of Paul’s discourse . . . That Christian gentiles were grafted into Abraham’s spiritual inheritance!
The topic was NOT God’s everlasting promises TO genetic Israel!”
Answer:
What genetic inheritence?
Sounds like a doctrine of the flesh to me.
You have created a false idol based on man’s DNA and not on the Blood of Christ. Hence, you have terribly demeaned the Cross of Christ.
You have created a Replacement Theology all of your own:
Race instead of Grace.
How would we know that God so loved the world that He sent His Son unless we had the Book in which he gives that information?
Okay the Psalm, written by God? Thy word above all thy name: What you God says is above all. Not a book.
Okay, give me some words God has said that aren't in His Word. If the Holy Bible isn't the Word that God is talking about, then what is He talking about?
The Church Age ends when God the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the indwelling of believers.
The Bible came after not before. If we had never had the book in which we are told about Jesus, we would still know because just as the Jews passed down their oral history for centuries before it was written, then so would the Christians have done the same. The problem arises because we have a book. People think that the book is it. The book is not it. Jesus is it. He is the Word.
The Bible is a set of books written over generations. These are revelations from God to his people.
The New Testament was written after the death and resurrection of Jesus. For instance Paul writes to the various churches where he has preached. He is admonishing or he is complimenting them on their adherence to what he has taught them. He did not give them writings, he gave them preaching. Oral.
The word in the Bible is the word of God. But John 1 is talking about Jesus as the Word, the second person of the Holy Trinity.
It is one of my favorite passages in the Bible.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
The Word is God. And Jesus is God.
I have no clue what words God has ever said that aren’t in the Bible. If you know please tell me.
“What impressive
fancy footwork and quiet
slipping and sliding past the early church references”
Challenge:
Find me one of your so-called ‘Early Church’ references who believed, taught, or preached a ‘pre-trib, pre-mil rapture’.
I didn’t ‘slip or slide’ past anything. There is simply nothing there to substantiate your view.
Again, you are trying to confuse Historic Premillenialism with Dispensational Premillenialism. This is an old Dispensationl trick.
Howeverm it’s not going to work here. Sorry.
“The Church Age ends when God the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the indwelling of believers.”
Challenge:
Give me a Sciptural reference, not just the opinion of a cunning man.
Since I don't accept your premise that Jesus Christ had no part in writing the Bible, and since you appear to believe that everything that God wrote in His Word would have been passed down in story form over the last 2000 years in it's exact present form, and since you appear to believe that there are no eternal consequences to denying the Word of God, I will ask you this: Where do you find in Scripture anywhere that God states that He Word is optional to man, and that He gives man a choice whether to believe it and obey it?
In the book of Revelation alone, God tells us:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18,19)
And since Revelation is actually the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and since He tells us that anyone who adds to or takes away the words in that Book are doomed, what indication do you get in Scripture that God feels differently from any other Book that He put in the Bible?
I'm going to stick with what God said - that The Word is Jesus Christ and to deny that Word is to choose eternal separation from God. Unless you can provide Scripture which contradicts that, I'm going to have to go with what God tells me.
***
I’m going to stick with what God said - that The Word is Jesus Christ and to deny that Word is to choose eternal separation from God. Unless you can provide Scripture which contradicts that, I’m going to have to go with what God tells me.
***
I totally agree. The Word is Jesus Christ and I will never deny Him.
What is the problem here?
It's good to know that you won't deny the Bible, since to do so is to deny Christ.
It's nice to be on the same page.
Well, you're wrong. God's promised to Abraham's seed are everlasting, including those according to the flesh.
Until and unless God breaks the covenant with Abraham, that covenant according to the flesh is still in effect.
Romans 11:1 1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." 4But what is God’s reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 11:25-29 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27"and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
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