Posted on 10/29/2011 10:01:19 PM PDT by marshmallow
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (ABP) – A Southern Baptist Convention official says one of the top challenges facing the nation’s second largest faith group behind Roman Catholics is the increasing influence of Calvinism in churches.
“I think one of the issues which is a tremendous challenge for us is the theological divide of Calvinism and non-Calvinism,” Frank Page, CEO of the SBC Executive Committee said in a blog interview posted Oct. 18 at SBC Today.
“Everyone is aware of this, but few want to talk about this in public,” elaborated Page, who assumed the post of president and CEO of the SBC fiduciary and executive agency last year. “The reason is obvious. It is deeply divisive in many situations and is disconcerting in others. At some point we are going to see the challenges which are ensuing from this divide become even more problematic for us. I regularly receive communications from churches who are struggling over this issue.”
Page, a former South Carolina pastor who served as SBC president 2006-2008, authored an 80-page booklet in 2000 titled Trouble with the TULIP: A Closer Examination of the Five Points of Calvinism. In it he termed Calvinism a “man-made” doctrine not supported by Scripture and defended what he called "the true teachings of grace."
The book countered a common acronym for the five main points of Calvinism, a theological model named after Protestant reformer John Calvin. They are: Total depravity, Unmerited election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace and Perseverance of the saints.
Page presented an alternative acronym of GRACE. “Given through Christ, Rejected through rebellion, Accepted through faith and Christ died for all” that summarized four points of a counter view of Calvinism called Arminianism. Page’s final “E” departed from Arminian thought with “everlasting life/security of the believer, a Calvinist doctrine held by most...........
(Excerpt) Read more at abpnews.com ...
Our fate is not decided by God.
God hardened Pharaoh’s heart after Pharaoh's had already decided, many times, in very obvious circumstances to ignore God. This did not determine Pharoah’s fate, Pharaoh's did.
Calvainism is "another gospel".....If you doubt, why do we call it "Calvinism"? Instead of Markism, Or Johnism, or Matthewism? Or Bibleism? I believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA.....If you can't argue your position from the bible, then you are NOT a Christian, you are something else. For example in the end times, people (according to Revelation) would rather curse God and die as they hide under rocks than acknowledge that he is God.
If you want to understand WHAT God did to Pharaoh, and why, and who's decision it was, read Romans Chapter 1 - it describes how God deals with people who suppress the truth.
My bad. Yes, but I figured most folk here didn’t need and wouldn’t understand the term “Hyper-Calvinism” and wouldn’t be aware of the battles in England that Spurgeon fought.
Funny...I haven't seen this from anyone on the board.
Most Calvinists I know, have known and whose work I have read stress the sovereignty of God. Tht is, they do NOT KNOW who's saved because only God is sovereign.
What they DO know, however, is that salvation is the gift of God.
I freepmailed you a couple of names. The biggest one of these has been dormant for months, and it is definitely not you who displays that attitude. Perhaps I need to change my perspective on Calvinists, but it will take time — we had three years of non-stop nyaahs and it will take time to forget...
I never said it was "exclusively" eastern. I objected to your point that it "rose in the West" -- Christianity "rose" in Asia, spread to the West but for much of the early centuries the "action" was in the East
Christianity is not "exclusively" either Eastern or Western even though it arose in the East.
I think it also taps into a primal urge “we are an upper-caste elect and better than you”
That was inadvertently funny :) “doctrines of G+5” :)
couldn’t they get along together?
“Christianity “rose” in Asia,”
Could you not say it just as much rose in Rome? There were believers in Rome, apparently quite a going concern, for years before Paul’s death.
“God hardened Pharaoh’s heart after Pharaoh’s had already decided, many times, in very obvious circumstances to ignore God. This did not determine Pharoah’s fate, Pharaoh’s did.”
As a Calvinist I don’t essentially deny that. I agree that Pharoah hardened his heart (the Bible says he did). I also believe that God hardened Pharoah’s heart (the Bible says He did).
How can both things be true? I don’t know. I don’t know how Jesus turned water into wine, either. But if the Bible says God hardened Pharoah’s heart - He did.
“Calvinism is “another gospel”.....If you doubt, why do we call it “Calvinism”? “
I might say why do we call your persuasion “Arminianism?”
Because it is a shorthand term for some specific beliefs.
I could say I believe mankind is totally lost with no possibility of saving himself, that he is elected to salvation by God before he fulfills any particular condition, that Jesus died specifically for His chosen people, that no one can resist God, and that anyone who is truly saved can never be lost.
Or I can say I’m a Calvinist. It’s shorthand.
You are no doubt a Trinitarian, an inerrantist, an Arminian, a dispensationalist. None of these terms is another gospel. They are shorthand words, that’s all.
Of course I have read Romans, more times than I can count, and as you know Romans describes predestination/election more succinctly than any other book in the Bible, although most if not all books refer to it.
Summed up so beautifully in Romans 9:
“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?”
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”
Rome, etc - even Alexandria were where Christianity extended, matured, etc. but to say Christianity "rose" in the West is wrong.
That would be pride, a deadly sin itself. Which would in PD think mean the prideful was prechosen to the wrong path.
I always had problems with the teetotaler aspect. Jesus's first miracle was always at odds with that.
That is an interesting bit -- so it would be that the pride in being part of the "elect" would actually be what keeps the person OUT of being part of the "elect". Like a cosmic Catch 22
He doesn't say "no to alcohol", only "no to drunkenness"
this is, imho one of the examples where He has given us free will -- He is like a loving all-powerful father who wants us to grow yet does not want to tie us and control our every move for our own safety.
What use/good is a payment to the one who MAKES and OWNS ALL?
We definitely have freewill.
Of course there will be those in any group who do not display a correct attitude.
However, that doesn't negate the fact that Calvinism correctly stresses that salvation is a gift of God. This is a doctrine which is taught plainly in the Bible, is also evident in natural theology, and one that brings solid assurance to a believer.
One must base his/her theology on any truth that is evident and not fallible people who may be attempting to espouse that truth.
Which may be why the Orthodox church has been overrun by Islam and atheism in so many areas.
Relying on the power of God for salvation is vital in maintaining a strong church. When one relies over-much on one's own strength to achieve salvation, one is easily destroyed by other faiths which purport that same theology.
True enough
“Calvinism stresses that saving faith is a gift of God.”
All Christians agree that salvation is the gift of God (Eph 2:8), but not all agree that God gives saving faith to some, while hating others and not allowing them to believe.
Those were external attacks SD. Islam overran the east. Our Orthodox brethren survived centuries under Islamic rule.
atheism too was external in many ways. It did not arise out of the Orthodox Church
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