Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
But HD, aruanan's post was talking about Calvin's point of view, not yours, not Augustine's.
He pointed out the error in Calvin's way, not yours
If God pre-destines folks to do evil, then the entire sacrifice, why the entire millenia of human anguish is like the act of a masochistic God, right?
Also, none of us would argue with Augustine's point that God saves, that's what the sacrifice on the cross was about -- God calls on us all and grants us the ability to be saved. He does NOT damn someone to hell, He did not create something that has no free will but is pre-programmed by Him to do evil.
Galatians 5:3-4 says And I testify again to every man circumcising himself, that he is a debtor to the whole law. [4] You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.
The man CHOOSES to do this and chooses to fall from grace -- in fact the very verse 4 says that the man was IN grace and chose to reject grace. God does not create someone pre-damned.
Exactly -- have you ever seen 'the Passion of The Christ'? If God already pre-destined, pre-chose some to reject this message, it's like saying this was just not needed, but a cruel sport by a masochistic deity
unless a man accepts Christ as Savior, --> if one cannot freely choose God, under the impetus of the Holy Spirit of course, then that verse is nonsensical. One "accepts" Christ, one is not "pre-programmed" or "pre-destined" to say "Lord, Lord".
how’s Jack doing today?
Our little Bruna is adorable, 3 months yet quite strong and energetic, YET she can stay at home for the two days my wife does not work from home, and she's good. She got toilet trained in 3 days (Jestem dumny! I'm proud) and can generally heel, except when she sees birds, then she goes nuts.
It's a problem getting up at 5:30 am to take her to the park next door, but it's worth it -- a dog can really bring joy to one's life
I'm going to pray for your little companion Mr Rogers. May Jack heal and learn (he's a collie after all -- they're supposed to be the smartest dogs!) and may you two have years of more joy ahead of you
I know a pastor who regularly visits nursing homes. He once prayed with an elderly resident for her dog's recovery after family had told her that her dog had been hit by a car.
The old woman was humbled by the pastor's act of kindness and for the first time in her long life, she wanted to know about God. All of this eventually led to this person accepting Christ into her life. She was baptized right there in the the nursing home.
Regards,
This is a stupid argument for a calvinist to make. Let's think this one through:
Wow.
Just...wow.
Quite Christ-like of you, isn't it?
Do I need the /sarc ?
That hope is there because they are frightened to death that they can't be good enough to be saved.
Moving the responsibility for that choice away from them gives them some semblance of peace and hope, without being convicted of their own shortcomings.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Notice what it says about who dealt the faith. You can spin, obfuscate or do anything else you want but it’s clear that all we have comes from God. You can discuss for hours or days but scripture clearly, as in the verse above, shows where faith comes from. To what extent we use that faith is our responsibility. Just as it’s our responsibility to use any of the gifts God gives us.
In your posts you have the cause and effect backwards. Re-read Augustine in HarleyD's #157:
"Many hear the word of truth; but some believe, while others contradict. Therefore, the former will to believe; the latter do not will." Who does not know this? Who can deny this? But since in some the will is prepared by the Lord, in others it is not prepared, we must assuredly be able to distinguish what comes from God's mercy, and what from His judgment. "What Israel sought for," says the apostle, "he hath not obtained, but the election hath obtained it; and the rest were blinded, as it is written, God gave to them the spirit of compunction,—eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, even to this day. And David said, Let their table be made a snare, a retribution, and a stumblingblock to them; let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see; and bow down their back always." [Rom. 11.7.] Here is mercy and judgment,—mercy towards the election which has obtained the righteousness of God, but judgment to the rest which have been blinded.....
Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,—not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." [John 15.16.] For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him. Whence it is not for any other reason that He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," than because they did not choose Him that He should choose them, but He chose them that they might choose Him; because His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt. Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, "As He hath chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world"? [Eph. 1.4.] And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;" when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him. Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. For whom He predestinated, them He also called, with that calling, to wit, which is according to the purpose. Not others, therefore, but those whom He predestinated, them He also called; nor others, but those whom He so called, them He also justified; nor others, but those whom He predestinated, called, and justified, them He also glorified; assuredly to that end which has no end. Therefore God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so. The Apostle James says: "Has not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love Him?" [James 2.5.] By choosing them, therefore; He makes them rich in faith, as He makes them heirs of the kingdom; because He is rightly said to choose that in them, in order to make which in them He chose them. I ask, who can hear the Lord saying, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," and can dare to say that men believe in order to be elected, when they are rather elected to believe; lest against the judgment of truth they be found to have first chosen Christ to whom Christ says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"? [John 15.16.]
Why did I?
As a military brat in Iceland in the 7th grade, my best friend wanted to join the youth group at the Chapel for the incredibly spiritual reason that there were some great looking girls in it. He dragged me along. There I met kids who accepted me and loved me and who were honest in a way I had never even conceived of being. And when asked why they did what they did, they said it was because they didn’t like the way they had been living, and had asked Jesus to forgive them and change them. I knew that whatever it was they had, I wanted - so I asked Jesus to forgive me, and to change me, and to take over my life and do with it as he pleased. And God kept his promises...
Did that make me better than anyone else? How about hungrier. How about needier. How about more desperate in my life. How about more miserable.
So, in the "soil parable" terms that you quoted, your best friend who went to the Chapel youth group for the great-looking chics and heard the same word that you did was just hardened path or thorn-infested soil, but you were good soil?
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear”, it says. When you went to that youth group in your fallen, unregenerate condition you had good ears and he in the same condition didn't?
Why do you think you realized at that meeting that you were hungry, needy. desperate and miserable, and your friend in the same exact unregenerate state as you didn't? You say, "I knew that whatever it was they had, I wanted - so I asked Jesus to forgive me, and to change me, and to take over my life and do with it as he pleased."
You have said that faith "comes from us". So you think that in your and your friend's unregenerate condition that your want or desire, or repentent faith - "came from you" (to paraphrase your words) - the originating source being your corrupt, God-hating, sin -loving nature by you were an enemy of God and alienated from Him, but it didn't come from your friend in the same exact condition? Why?
To borrow a George W. Bush malapropism, you grossly misunderestimate the FALL of man, his sinful nature, and his depravity. The only reason you had ears to hear is BECAUSE you are of God.
"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.""He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.
Acting out of his native wants, all that a natural man ever wants to do is select whichever choice in any situation is a God-hating choice. At the moment we fell, the entire race became spiritually depraved hate-filled enemies of God, desiring only to spite Him with every choice over which we have any power or decision, ever.
And btw, don't say that we don't believe in free will. Your allegation that we're all wrapped up with our "mechanical world" is misplaced. Our free will is intact and totatly operative in all this.
The natural man hates God with all his heart, and so he freely wills to spite God. Hating God is exactly what the natural man wants to do. It's all he wants to do. His free will is the means by which he is able to turn his God-hating desires into willful acts and thereby store up more wrath for himself.
If you underestimate the impact of this fact, you completely misunderstand the entire nature of man and God's relation to him. Without exception. The fact is that if your God-hatred had not been first unilaterally re-engineered into a want to repent, then you never would have wanted to perform any God-pleasing choices -- including the God-pleasing choice to reach out to the Son.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day..You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you
Cordially,
I too believe that God tells the truth to each of us.
I have a problem with predestination. I have no doubt that God knows who will and will not make the right decisions and take the right actions to gain Salvation, He is after all omniscient. I also do not doubt that Hod has the power to command Salvation, He is after all omnipotent. However, I do believe that God seeks the greatest prize, love freely given. Genuine love cannot be commanded, coerced, or purchased. He is after all infinitely perfect.
“Notice what it says about who dealt the faith.”
OK, let’s look at that passage again IN CONTEXT.
“3For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”
Is this talking about the gifts of the Spirit, given for the good of the Body, or is it talking about saving faith?
The gifts are given differently, to each according to the will of the Holy Spirit. We don’t all have the same role.
But salvation is different. Why?
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
There is no differing there - it is whoever believes. Not, “Whoever I give belief to”, not, “If I give him belief it will SHOW that I have regenerated him” (for what aruanan said is true - in the doctrine of Calvin, faith is the evidence of new life, not the mean - to Calvin, we live to believe, rather than believe to live, in contradiction to what the Apostle John wrote). Jesus COULD have supported Calvinism, yet his words - if Jesus is honest - means...well, it means “whoever believes in him may have eternal life”. Believes to live, not lives to believe. And “whoever” means...well, whoever.
Whoever: “whatever person; anyone that: Whoever did it should be proud. Ask whoever is there. Tell it to whomever you like.”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whoever
Let me rephrase it for the followers of Calvin: “[whatever person; anyone that] believes in him may have eternal life”.
That is the promise of Jesus Christ: Anyone that believes in him may have eternal life.
That is why I question the Christianity of Calvinists. As a temporary error, like not knowing about the Trinity, it is OK. But almost all Calvinists first are Arminians, and only latter come to believe they are specially hand-picked for salvation. And that denies the Gospel - the Good News - that Jesus Christ proclaimed: Anyone that believes in him may have eternal life.
(For more on how whoever is used, read the passages for yourself: http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=whoever&t=ESV&csr=9&sf=5)
Many make much of passages that say “I chose you”. Yet there are two possibilities for what that statement means. It can mean, “I chose you as an individual”, or it can mean “I chose your type of individual’. It can mean, “I chose CynicalBear”, or it can mean, “I chose those who believe, and you qualify”.
This hinges on if election is corporate (which it undeniably was in the Old Covenant), or individual.
So what did Jesus say? Did he say the elect would have eternal life (individual election), or did he say “Anyone that believes in him may have eternal life” (corporate)?
If individual election is true, then Jesus (if honest) would have to say, “those I picked before time may have eternal life”. And Paul, if honest, would have needed to say, “We are saved by grace through election”. Why? Because according to Calvin, the critical thing is if God put your name in the pile of Elect before time. THAT is what, according to Calvin, distinguishes those who will live from those who will die.
Yet we find that nowhere in scripture. Instead, we find it repeatedly contradicted in the most explicit words:
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
We have examples from healing:
Mat 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Mat 9:28 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
Luk 8:50 But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
In any of these, does Jesus say, “I have chosen you for healing from before time: Be healed!”
Nope. What do we read elsewhere?
“4And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them. And he marveled because of their unbelief.” - Mark 6
Why did he marvel? If he didn’t give them belief, then unbelief was all they could do - yet “he marveled because of their unbelief”!
We have many other passages teaching explicitly that the critical factor is if we believe (a small sample):
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Jhn 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jhn 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Jhn 11:26 “and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”...
Jhn 11:40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”
Act 4:4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.
Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Hbr 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1Pe 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
1Pe 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:30 since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
He does not say, “All who are Elect will live”, but “But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”
So Calvinists can proclaim their version of the Gospel:
“The Few. The Proud. The Elect.
Maybe you are one of us...”
But the GOSPEL - the GOOD NEWS - is that ANYONE THAT BELIEVES in him may have eternal life. Not that the Chosen Few will be irresistibly given belief because they live, but ANYONE THAT BELIEVES in him may have eternal life!
And FRiends, THAT is Good News!
It is talking about spiritual gifts. NO ONE suggests that whosoever wants to be an evangelist can become one. We never see, “Whosoever does X shall become an Apostle”. The gifts are not that way. There are no ‘whosoever’ promises concerning gifts.
In a similar passage in Ephesians 4 we read:
“4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8Therefore it says,
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
9( In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ...”
One faith does not mean we all receive the same one spiritual gift. Faith, in the NT, refers both to what exists when we believe, and also the entire form & belief of the church as a whole - one faith, but varying gifts. It is significant that faith is so essential that the entire belief system came to be called ‘the faith’.
Read Rom 12 again:
3For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
God assigns one faith to be an evangelist. Not me. I hate meeting strangers for any reason. My faith has no measure of evangelism mixed in. However, I can teach...sometimes. I can give, and I can administer things. That is MY “measure of faith that God has assigned”. Note that it is a measure of faith.
According to Strong’s concordance, measure comes from the Greek ‘metron’. It means “a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid”. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3358&t=ESV) It is used in Corinthians 10:13 -
But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you.
“Area of influence” is how the ESV translates the more literal NASB rendering: “the measure of the sphere which God apportioned to us”.
The “measure of faith that God has assigned” is that part of the one Faith where we work in the one Body by God’s assignment. It very clearly deals with what GIFTS God gives us to perform our duties, NOT saving faith.
Now, if you had a verse that read, “And God gave them faith, and they believed”, THEN you would have something. You would have then one verse showing that God gives us faith to be saved. But you don’t have that. No one I’ve challenged has come up with that.
God reveals himself to man, which is God’s grace to us. Some accept it (receive him John 1), and others do not (not receive him). Those that do have faith, describing their having believed God. Those that do not, do not have faith because they do not believe. But the call is to “whosoever”. Those that respond become the elect, chosen by God, not as individuals, but by meeting the standard God imposes: believing Him.
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are LOST; In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Cor. 4:3-5.
Satan has blinded those who do not believe lest they should be saved by the gospel of Christ. Which came first, them being lost, or them being blinded by Satan so they cannot be saved?
Once again you own words expose your heart. The “met” God’s standards so were saved. They deserved it because they “met” the standards. How arrogant and may I say prideful.
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