Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
You made the assertion that nowhere does the Bible tell us to pray for one another. I provided you with two examples each from Jesus and Paul.
You now provide me with four verses of Paul ranting at the Athenian Jews. Our entire conversation has been me answering your questions or points and you immediately changing the subject. May I enquire as to your driving record and the number of accidents you have had?
The verses apply
BTW I have a perfect driving record
Never been in an accident while driving and never gotten a ticket , not even one for parking
Oh and just for your information I have driven things that most me can’t handle ;)
errrr
That should read I have driven things that most men can’t handle
I need to take this keyboard apart again *sigh*
(sticky ice tea )
There are more, but the whole thing is that the whole model is built upon the idea of kingdom. That's why the role of Mary was accepted by the Church so quickly in the first century.Quite fascinating fiction. You must certainly be aware that no such concept as Mary being Queen of Heaven was even mentioned for many hundreds of years. Even the Assumption nonsense did not appear for 400 years after Christ and from apochryphal origens.
Does Jesus Call Mary Queen of Heaven? Do any of the Apostles call Mary Queen of Heaven? Does Mary play a significant part in Acts? Is Mary mentioned as playing ANY part in the first generation church? Is Mary healing the sick? etc... Produce a Christian source calling Mary the Queen of Heaven from the first century?
To what? Oh and just for your information I have driven things that most me can’t handle ;)
Umm, are you claiming multiple personalities? :)
Quite fascinating fiction. You must certainly be aware that no such concept as Mary being Queen of Heaven was even mentioned for many hundreds of years.
The truth is that the first icon was painted by the Gospel writer Luke and it was of Mary. Mariology is woven into the Church's history and was integral to the early Church. The mother and child icon and later sculptures almost dominated holy depictions. Even if I did produce first century evidence, would you then believe? Do the fact that the first definition of the Council of Ephesus negate anything? The Trinitarian Formula and the Nicene Creed was first defined at Nicea. Since they were not in existence prior, does that negate them?
Quite fascinating fiction. You must certainly be aware that no such concept as Mary being Queen of Heaven was even mentioned for many hundreds of years.
The truth is that the first icon was painted by the Gospel writer Luke and it was of Mary. Mariology is woven into the Church's history and was integral to the early Church. The mother and child icon and later sculptures almost dominated holy depictions. Even if I did produce first century evidence, would you then believe? Do the fact that the first definition of the Council of Ephesus negate anything? The Trinitarian Formula and the Nicene Creed was first defined at Nicea. Since they were not in existence prior, does that negate them?
It provided a nice opportunity for a zinger!!! :)
The truth is that the first icon was painted by the Gospel writer Luke.An unsupported legend, hardly verifiable truth. Quite unlikely considering the prohibition of the second commandment.
Mariology is woven into the Church's history and was integral to the early Church.The early church is totaly silent on the various Marian heresies for the first 400 years or so years until the apocharyphal pagan transitus Marie writings appear and are condemned by the Church but later brought in. See 2 Pet 2
The evidence is entrirely lacking to support any of your assertions. The entire NT does not record Mary playing any active part in the NT church! No one is praying to Her! She is not sitting on a throne, anywhere. She is not dispensing "grace" to anyone! She is not performing miracles. She is not part of the Apostolic ministry in ANY way!
Unfortunately, the church allowed heresy to influence her and let Mary became a focus for all sorts of nonsense 500 YEARS after the Biblical events occured! See the reference by Jesus about traditions of men.
How about a little back up source for your claims? Show us where Osiris was given all those titles. Source, please.
You have made a very important point. Like you, I couldn't care less what Mary did after the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. She had every right and it was totally within the law that she have a normal husband/wife relationship and have other children. She was certainly a very blessed woman and, through her faith and obedience, she was given the great honor of bearing the Messiah. But that's it.
If the Catholic Church had left it at that or even if they had left it up to the individual to accept her continued virginity, I would have no problem. What they did that was without Scriptural authority was to make the belief in her perpetual virginity as well as her "sinlessness" a mandatory rule/law of the faith. They proclaimed that it was of the faith and that those who denied it could NOT be saved. If anyone rejected it they were told they were self-excommunicated. In other words, believe what we say is true or you will go to HELL. They went TOO FAR. That is why I reject their assumed infallibility and why I know they are NOT teaching the truth. "Do not go beyond what is written", is what Paul said. They did just that and not only on this point, I may add.
And dumb jokes, don’t forget those. A real “commodienne”.
Many outside the faith don’t even know what they believe in — and they don’t believe what they believe!
It's quite good, I'm sure, using sola scriptura as the Unitarian Universalists do to deny everything we Christians believe in..
Thank you, Lera. Well put.
Link to the Dec. 2010 Running from Babylon article
http://runningfrombabylon.blogspot.com/2010/12/decapitated-and-amputated.html
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excerpt
A great and violent storm off the coast of Caesarea in Israel on December 14, “unburied” an ancient statue of a woman.
The barely 4-foot high statue was semi-buried in ocean sand as sea foam rushed past her and then swirled back out to sea again.
She faced west, towards America, but has no eyes to see with as she was found both headless and armless. (1)
An Israeli archaeologist who examined her believed she might be a nearly 1,700 year old state of Aphrodite.
Aphrodite to the Greeks but Venus to the Romans. Venus has long been associated with the morning star, a title that Lucifer took for his own to deceive millions through the millennia into worshiping him and not the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
We learn from the Book of Enoch (apart from the Bible but referenced by Jude) that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels who joined with him in his rebellion in an attempt to seize the throne of God were cast down to earth and that all these fallen angels were male. There appear to be no references to female angels — angels are referred to as the “sons of God.”
Genesis 6 (and the Book of Enoch) notes that some of these fallen angels took wives to have children, bearing gigantic offspring as a result. Genesis 6 does not note that any of these fallen angels took husbands in order to bare children.
I note that to write this: I believe that ANY female goddesses that appear in mythology are nothing more than Lucifer in drag. That is probably what is really meant by addressing many of these goddesses as “queens.”
Aphrodite/Venus is NO different. Aphrodite or Venus is only Lucifer and no female, and no iconography can persuade me otherwise.
end of first excerpt
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second excerpt
... Much has been written on the Internet about Liberty and who and what she truly represents. One has to wade carefully and spit out seeds as you go. But one idea does persist: the Statue of Liberty is meant to represent an ancient goddess who has many names but apparently one purpose — freedom from tyranny. Since many “ancient goddesses” (and modern day “Virgin” apparitions) are nothing more than Lucifer in a dress, then what freedom does he represent? Simply put — freedom from the “tyranny” of the God of the Bible. Nothing more. And Lucifer will seduce anyone by any means at any time with any tool.
Aphrodite can be traced to Isis and Isis has been re-imagined as the Statue of Liberty, and now a form of the Statue of Liberty has appeared on the coast of Israel without head and without arms after a violent storm.
Aleister Crowley, the utterly lost and utterly undone British occultist (polite way of saying Satanist) who died in 1947, melted the complex genealogy of Aphrodite/Venus/Hathor/Isis to simply declaring that Isis is Babalon, a name he created by changing the ‘y’ in Babylon to an ‘a.’
Therefore, Bertholdi’s Isis/Liberty is Crowley’s Isis/Babalon.
Oh the web the deceiver weaves!
While the statue uncovered Dec. 14, has been called a ‘treasure,’ although its intrinsic value may be reduced for lack of head and lack of arms, its uncovering came at a price to the Israelis: an area of cliff with yet still to be studied treasures was washed away into the ocean.
“We don’t see this discovery as such good news,” one of (Yigal) Israel’s colleagues at the antiquities authority told Reuters. “Better relics remain hidden and protected than that they be exposed and damaged.” (1)
Loss of land and loss of ancient identity.
That was the price for a decapitated drag queen.
The place of emergence for Aphrodite in Caesarea was at Ashkelon where, during the time when Samuel the prophet judged Israel, another ‘god’ was rendered decapitated and amputated.
It was Dagon and it was in a showdown over the Ark of the Covenant.
Ashkelon was one of the five major cities of the Philistines, the other four being Ashdod, Gath, Ekron and Gaza, the city where Samson was taken in chains to the temple of Dagon to be made “sport of” by the Philistines but, instead, Samson pushed apart two pillars of the temple collapsing it and killing a great many (Judges 16). Even now this last act of Samson’s is remembered in general as a reference to Israel’s quiet nuclear capabilities and their willingness to retaliate against an enemy with use of nuclear force via the Samson Option.
Unfortunately, like Samson, Israel may first have to suffer the loss of sight.
The Philistines captured the Ark at the battle of Shiloh and in triumph offered the Ark to their god Dagon by placing the Ark in the Temple of Dagon that was in Ashdod.
I Samuel 5 records the account in which the first morning after the battle, when the Philistines went to the temple, they found Dagon face down before the Ark. They set Dagon back in his place (since he couldn’t do it himself). On the next morning, the Philistines again returned to the temple.
And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him. —I Samuel 5: 4 (emphasis mine)
Headless and with no hands — only a stump left to him. And that was for coming into the presence of the Ark of the Covenant.”
end of second excerpt
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ping to 818 :)
Your post 732, ... Praying to idols and asking them to help will not change a thing and America is now quite full of people who bow down to idols and ask them for help instead of repenting and praying to whom they are supposed to. America is quite full of people who get insulted when they are asked to repent . BTW repentance starts with those whom say they know God and are called by his name . ...
... There is NOT one hail Mary in the Bible , NOT ONE ... it’s not in there
but
the “Queen of Heaven” is in there.
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
This brought judgement and national destruction to the northern kingdom of Israel because they would not repent they were taken as slaves and scattered to the nations. ...
The queen of heaven has an old history and all the nations of the earth were drunken in her , she goes by many names and she seduces people into bowing to her instead of our Creator.
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Thanks, Lera. The sheep clothes wolves wear take many forms!
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