[fwdude]

How about one reference from Scripture?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The Church Fathers- Mary: Ever Virgin

Ya so what? So are most NOW members. :-)

[DManA]

If she stayed a virgin after Jesus then she was unfaithful to her husband.

[wideawake]

This thread has become an inadvertent IQ test, apparently.

Each reply seems to be a cognitive fail.

[NEWwoman]

There are scripture references in English translations that mention Jesus had brothers and sisters - such as James, Judas, Simon ...

But in all fairness, I understand the original words used for “brethren” is ambiguous and could mean a male relative - and you see such ambiguity throughout Scriptures.

By the way, I am a Protestant, and appreciate the link to Church Fathers. Before the Reformation, the Catholic Church was the Christian Church in the Middle Ages. And to ignore that fact would be to ignore much of our history.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I think you weaken your case significantly when you lead off with your first quote:

The document presents itself as written by James: "I, James, wrote this history in Jerusalem."-XXV[3] Thus the purported author is James the Just, whom the text claims is a son of Joseph from a prior marriage, and thus a stepbrother of Jesus.

Scholars have established that, based on the style of the language and the fact that the author is not aware of contemporary Jewish customs, while the historical James the Just certainly was, the work is pseudepigraphical (not written by the person it is attributed to).[4] For instance the work suggests there were consecrated temple virgins in Judaism, as with Vestal Virgins in pagan Rome(!), but this is spurious. Celibacy has played little role in Judaism, in which marriage and raising children are understood as holy obligations.[5]

The consensus is that it was actually composed some time in the 2nd century AD. The first mention of it is by Origen of Alexandria in the early 3rd century, who says the text, like that of a "Gospel of Peter", was of dubious, recent appearance and shared with that book the claim that the 'brethren of the Lord' were sons of Joseph by a former wife.[6]

Wiki

That said, don't you think it is surprising that if the FIRST generation Church believed Mary remained a virgin, it would have been written by a Christian somewhere during the first hundred years?

If this was part of God's design and was so crucial to our understanding of Mary, why isn't it in the New Testament?

As such, I have to conclude the issue rests on an argument from silence, that later became a doctrine of the Church and should be rejected. It is unnecessary to the work of Christ. It seems to me it only tries to exalt Mary into something she was not, instead of rejoicing in all God proclaimed about her.

Generally, Protestants make too little of Mary, violating the Scriptures. Catholics make too much of Mary, violating the Scriptures. Both have good intent. Both are wrong to do so.

[count-your-change]

Some more fraudulent nonsense.

From the same work:

“Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.”
(www.earlychristianwritings.com)

[lastchance]

This is an excellent article from an Ethiopian Orthodox site. “The Perpetual Virgnity of St. Mary.”

http://www.ninesaintsethiopianorthodoxmonastery.org/id26.html

[lastchance]

From the article “The Virginity of St. Mary.”

“Why is St. Mary’s Ever-Virginity so Important

Some would say that even if it can be proved, St. Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is not essential to the proclamation of the Gospel, and this is true on a certain level. In its essence, the Orthodox Church proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is our message, our reason for being, the very life of our life. Teaching about St. Mary is really meant for the initiates, those who have already accepted the Gospel and have committed themselves to Jesus Christ and to service in His Holy Church.

This is so because what St. Mary teaches us about the Incarnation of the Word of God requires that we first accept the Incarnation. Once we do, then her virginity not only after giving birth, but also before-and indeed the character of her entire life-become in themselves a wellspring of teaching about life in Christ and the glory of God. Indeed, she said as much herself. By stating that “all generations shall call me blessed,” St. Mary was not vainly contemplating her own uniqueness, but proclaiming the wonder that her life was to manifest Almighty God’s glorious victory in His Christ for all time.

St. Mary was not an accident vessel of God, someone picked out of the crowed as it were, as some would have us think in our day. Rather her role in our salvation was prepared from the beginning of the ages. The entire history of Israel-the Patriarchs, the Psalms, the Prophets, the giving of the Commandments-converged in the young woman who would answer the way all Israel should always have answered, and as we all are expected to answer now: “Behold the handmaiden of the Lord.”

But her purpose in salvation history did not end there. She was not cast aside as an article that is no longer useful. Instead her whole being and life would continue to point us without distraction to her Son. At the wedding of Cana in Galilee we hear her words: “Whatever He says to you, do it” (St. John 2:5). At her Son’s crucifixion, she stands fast at the foot of the Cross, this time pointing not with words but by her refusal to leave His side even in the face of what seemed an impossible nightmare. As we undertake to imitate this faithfulness in pointing always to Almighty God, we will begin to see in the same measure that St. Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is in fact her ever-ministry, the ideal example for our own ministry.

It is important to recover the proper Veneration of St. Mary which the Apostolic Church has always held, not because St. Mary is the great exception but, as one Orthodox theologian has said, because she is the Great Example. This Veneration is beautifully expressed in an Orthodox hymn that poetically recounts the Archangel St. Gabriel’s first encounter with the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, who was about to become the Ark of the New Covenant, the throne of God, the flesh which gave flesh to the Word of God:”

[marbren]

And now from the same people who gave us replacement theology we have this teaching. Maybe one lie fed the other? How many other lies are floating out there being called doctrine?

[Salvation]

Virgin Birth—or Prophetic Slip?
The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary
Aeiparthenos (An Anglo-Catholic Priest on Mary's Perpetual Virginity)
[Why I Am Catholic]: Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
The Protestant Reformers on the Virgin Mary
Zwingli’s’ Mariology: On Mary “Full of Grace”

[DaveMSmith]

This teaching is rubbish. Mary had other children. What Catholic doesn’t believe in a large family?

[Mr. K]

This is SUCH A STUPID topic of discussion

[AnalogReigns]

I’ve studied the Fathers, and the fact of the matter, on this and various other doctrinal issues they were NOT inerrant—nor did they ever claim to be.

For example before the 4th Century, many of the Fathers get the doctrine of the holy Trinity partly or entirely wrong....but that’s OK, it hadn’t been fully worked out and understood (as much as can be understood) yet...

The fact of the matter is that the Roman world from the 2nd Century on was greatly influenced by gnostic, anti-material-world beliefs. Sex, marriage, and women...are all symbolic of this material world, hence, the Fathers (and later, the Medieval Church) tended to have a low view of sexual relations (yes, even in marriage), marriage (the REALLY dedicated Christians don’t marry, don’t you know...), and women (temptresses all, unless in a Convent!).

When Gentile Christians dominated the Church—old Hebrew ideas (which were always positive about the material world—since God made it, and so were positive about sex, marriage, and women (see the Song of Songs)) waned, and Pagan philosophical assumptions (anti-material-world) had a deep influence.

Elevation of virginity as somehow morally superior to fidelity in marriage was one of those influences—as evidenced in the writings of the Fathers.

Given this assumption, naturally, it was assumed...Mary, as the best of all women, just HAD to have been a virgin even after Jesus’ birth.

Some theories had it that not even Jesus birth passed through the birth-canal or ruptured her hymen...and somehow the baby just miraculously appeared in her lap!

Thank God Apostolic Tradition was fully written down in the New Testament however, therefore we can get past, and get over, those ancient Roman and Medieval philosophical biases....

[cookcounty]

The marriage bed is undefiled. Scripture says so. Do not call “unclean” what God has said is clean.

If Mary remained a virgin or not...SO WHAT?

[Barnacle]

Well, all this convinces me that it was a very popular belief around 400 AD.

Even as a Catholic, it's perplexing how remaining a virgin in marriage can be considered a virtuous wife.

[fwdude]

Here is how Catholics always see Jesus; always overshadowed by, co-equal to, proceeding from and supported by "Mary":

By the way, there is NO scriptural support whatsoever that Mary held the body of Jesus after his crucifixion. On the contrary, strict custody was maintained by the Jewish leaders and Romans to prevent a fraudulent resurrection.

PRAYER TO THE MOTHER OF SORROWS

Ah, my Blessed Mother,
it is not one sword only with which I have pierced thy heart,
but I have done so with as many
as are the sins which I have committed.
Ah, Lady, it is not to thee,
who art innocent,
that sufferings are due, but to me,
who am guilty of so many crimes.
But since thou hast been pleased to suffer so much for me,
ah, by thy merits,
obtain me great sorrow for my sins,
and patience under the trials of this life,
which will always be light in comparison with my demerits;
for I have often deserved Hell.

Amen.

If this isn't blasphemy, the word has no meaning.

[jiminycricket000]

Sorry for butting into a debate without knowing who's saying what. But I gleaned enough to see that somebody thinks Catholic 'worship' the ever Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, mother of God. If the Protestants think they can seperate Jesus' humanity from His divinity, they are nothing but self appointed "popes". You simply cannot say Jesus is two seperate people, one just a typical man, the other God. Our Lord Jesus Christ is both man and God at once. The Apostle Thomas knew this when he fell to his knees before Jesus and said: "My Lord and my God". Unless the Bible is lying, or the Apostle Thomas was wrong, (and note that Jesus didn't correct him), then it must be that the Virgin Mary is the mother of God. How can this be they ask? Jesus once said: "with God all is possible". But being the mother of God does not mean Mary is God 'creator', or his heavenly 'superior'.

Mary is God's creation, a human being, period. And Catholics do NOT worship Mary, if they did I'd leave the Church. Catholics pray to Mary only to aske her to pray for them, as the mother of Jesus Christ, God incarnate. Protestants ask others to pray for them, which is right and good. But if the prayers of other, united to our own, make our prayers stronger, then how much stronger are our prayers when Jesus Christ's mother prays for us? Is the Virgin Mary dead, or alive in Heaven without the ability to hear our pleas and prayers? Impossible. The people in Heaven are more alive than you and I, and can most certainly hear our petitions, just as our heavenly Guardian Angels hear us.

Also consider the "Mount of the Transfiguration", where Jesus appeared to Peter, James and John, along with Moses and Elias. Our Lord actually spoke and conversed with Moses and Elias, both of whom certainly saw and heard the three Apostles. The Apostles then venerated Jesus and the two Old Testaments Saints by desiring to build them each a "tabernacle". Was this a slight to Jesus, the Son of God, that the Apostles wanted to venerate the Old Testament Fathers? Not at all.