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The Church Fathers- Mary: Ever Virgin
The Church Fathers ^ | 120AD-450AD

Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow

The Protoevangelium of James

“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).

“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).

“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).

“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).

Origen

“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Hilary of Poitiers

“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius

“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).

Jerome

“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).

Didymus the Blind

“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

Ambrose of Milan

“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

Pope Siricius I

“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

Augustine

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

Leporius

“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

Cyril of Alexandria

“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).

Pope Leo I

“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: virginmary
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To: metmom

Typical catholic tactic...”If it isn’t in the Bible”..same o’ same o’.


261 posted on 06/01/2011 7:06:01 AM PDT by caww
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To: metmom; Turtlepower; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; YellowRoseofTx; Rashputin; ...
God told Joseph to marry Mary. He did it. He waited to consummate the marriage until after the birth of Jesus.
Well there we have it. The triumph of Y.O.P.I.O.S., one protty says Joseph was engaged to Mary, the other says he actually married her but delayed consummation until the Birth. Both are convinced they are right. Who knows?

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man's understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God. (Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther's Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)

262 posted on 06/01/2011 7:11:22 AM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: xone
To the pastors I know, I had to explain the context for them to realize what I was talking about. They were unfamiliar with the concept by that name. So while you may embrace it, it is a new challenge to orthodoxy in that format, and the Scriptural basis is such that it gets no play except amongst the heterodox. Scripturally it isn't a close call.

Any LCMS Pastor's I have talked to also did not have a clue about the roles of Israel and the Church. P#2 Revelation Bible study was embraced by me at the time.. This was about the time I was wondering what the truth was about Israel in the scriptures. P#3 Bible study on Revelation was a waste of time that I had to live through. It was agony. P#4 had a fascinating Revelation study that I did not agree with many points but learned a lot!

263 posted on 06/01/2011 7:46:32 AM PDT by marbren
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To: narses
"Both are convinced they are right. Who knows?"

Given that, "the lot is in the lap of the Lord", just flip a coin in this case and in other cases uses the appropriate number of die to cover competing interpretations. Churches can help out the faithful by selling approved twelve sided die that have been prayed over the same way some churches now sell prayer hankies.

There you have it, Sola Aleae perfects Sola Scriptura.

264 posted on 06/01/2011 8:07:31 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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To: metmom; boatbums; caww; RnMomof7; bkaycee; blue-duncan

And once again (and again, and again) if SS, in which all is subject to the Scriptures, and what is needed for salvation and to be perfect and for every good work, (2Tim. 3:17) is supplied by it, formally or materially, meant solO scriptura instead, then no adherent of the former could teach the 70AD destruction of the Temple, or quote a commentary, etc. But straw men are easy to burn.

As for the perpetual virginity of Mary, while this is not a salvific issue, nor impossible, such would be contrary to the description of marriage affirmed by Christ, in which in they “leave and cleave” so “they shall be one flesh,” (Gn. 2:24) and the counsel of Paul in 1Cor. 7:5.

We cannot limited God in disallowing a perpetual virginity, yet it is a case of limiting the Holy One of Israel to hold that Mary had to be sinless for Christ to be incarnated thru her, as the wholly God-breathed Word of God of Scripture came thru holy but fallen men.


265 posted on 06/01/2011 8:11:21 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: daniel1212
We cannot limited God in disallowing a perpetual virginity, yet it is a case of limiting the Holy One of Israel to hold that Mary had to be sinless for Christ to be incarnated thru her, as the wholly God-breathed Word of God of Scripture came thru holy but fallen men.

The fact is Christ Himself was sinless...and He is our Salvation not Mary. It sometimes gets unnerving when so much attention is given to his mother. Was she a virgin or not, was she sinless or not. Salvation isn't about Mary sinlessness it's about her son,.... and she made that perfectly clear. Since the Holy Spirit continuously points to Christ...I have no doubt Mary would and did so throughout her pregnancy and news of. She was humble before God. The Mary I see Rome depict is not in the least the Mary I see recorded in scripture....rather a manufactured image used to keep people bound to an idol instead of Christ.

266 posted on 06/01/2011 8:31:04 AM PDT by caww
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To: narses
It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God. (Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther's Works

Why? I disagree with Luther on this...it is enough to recognize Mary as the Mother of Jesus....she is not central..He is... Furthermore, though Jesus is indeed God..I do not see mary as the mother of God....who needs no mother...He is God.

267 posted on 06/01/2011 8:37:29 AM PDT by caww
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To: narses
It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
-Martin Luther

Thankfully, Luther got one thing right.

268 posted on 06/01/2011 8:42:15 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: narses
Where does Scripture say they were “married” then? How old was Our Lord when that occurred?

HaHaHa...You can't find a Catholic wedding ceremony any where in the scriptures...

A marriage is the result of the consummation of the parties involved...Mary and Joseph were not married til they had sex...

So you want to be careful who you have sex with...

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

269 posted on 06/01/2011 8:43:31 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: narses; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...
. . . Y'ALL ARE STILL EVER THE POLICEMEN, I SEE! LOL . . .
Particularly toward those whose views y'all deplore.


Photobucket

270 posted on 06/01/2011 8:49:03 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww
Typical catholic tactic...”If it isn’t in the Bible”..same o’ same o’.

Yah, but then they go, 'if it's not in the bible, that gives us another opportunity to make something up and call it Tradition...And the Catholic sheeple will believe us'...

271 posted on 06/01/2011 8:51:47 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: narses
Well there we have it. The triumph of Y.O.P.I.O.S., one protty says Joseph was engaged to Mary, the other says he actually married her but delayed consummation until the Birth. Both are convinced they are right. Who knows?

You would know too if you would read a bible...

They sell 'em down to the five and dime...Cheap too...With the red letters...

272 posted on 06/01/2011 8:54:20 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Yep...It’s a tactic and one they are taught to use when backed into a corner...with the truth.

I’ve been increasingly amazed of the tactics used so very similar to those in false religions and occults. That is a troubling thing for me to see....it is a tactic the enemy of men’s souls often uses.


273 posted on 06/01/2011 9:01:16 AM PDT by caww
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To: narses; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...

from:

http://daaixin.wordpress.com/heavenly-visitations-heavenly-visits/

Original source:

http://www.spiritlessons.com/

Then he started showing me women. He told me, “Daughter, “that woman that you see there is my servant, Mary Magdalene; my servant, Sara,” and suddenly He told me,” Daughter, she is Mary, Mary, who gave birth to Jesus Christ, Who I am.” “Daughter, I want to tell you that she has no knowledge of anything that exists on Earth. I want to tell you that you must go and tell humanity, tell idol worshippers that hell is real and that idolaters will not inherit my kingdom, but go and tell them that if they repent, they can enter my heavenly dwelling place.

Go tell them that I love them and tell them that Mary has no knowledge of anything and the only One that they must exalt is me, because neither Mary, nor St. Gregory nor any other saint can offer salvation. I am the only One who saves and outside of me – nobody, nobody, nobody- saves!” He repeated it three times – that nobody could save; only He saves.

Humanity has been deceived believing in an assumed saint, which is not, but is a demon working through that idol made by the hand of man. But, let me tell you that the Lord wants to give you the best. He wants you to enter the Kingdom of Heaven; to repent and to leave idolatry to the side because idolatry will not save you. He who saves is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who gave his life for you, for me and for all humanity. The Lord has a great message for humanity.

As He wept, He told me, “Please, Daughter, do no be silent; go and tell the truth, go and tell what I have shown you.” I then saw how Mary worshipped the Lord and I could see those women with very beautiful hair, long hair and I told the Lord, “Lord, how pretty the way they wear their hair.” He told me, “Daughter, that which you see is the veil that I have given to a woman.” He added, “Daughter, go and tell women to take care of the veil that I have given them.”

Then He told me, “I have something to show you that is very important.” Suddenly, I looked far away, in front of what I was observing, and I saw a shining city, a city of gold. And I said,” Lord, what is that which I am seeing over there? I want to go over there.” He answered, “Daughter, I will show you what is over there. What you are seeing is the heavenly dwelling, the heavenly mansions which are ready for my people.” We began to walk and moved away from the people that were worshipping the Lord. We reached a golden bridge, walked over it and came upon the streets that were made of pure gold!

Everything was so beautiful and as I looked around everything was brilliant as shining glass and everything was reflecting as if looking into a mirror and – it was absolutely supernatural, something inexplicable! We kept on walking and approached the heavenly mansions and I saw the angels and watched as thousands of angels were constructing: Some constructed very rapidly, others constructed slowly and others were not constructing. My question was, “Lord, I want you to tell me something.” He replied, “Tell me, Daughter, what is it that you want me to tell you?”

“Lord, why are those angels constructing rapidly, why are those constructing slower and why have those stopped constructing?” In few words the Lord explained, “Daughter, that is how my people work on Earth and the angels work as my children work on Earth.”

I said, “Lord, I don’t understand.” He answered, “Daughter, my people no longer spread the gospel, my people no longer fast, my people no longer go to the streets to distribute tracts telling the truth. My people are now ashamed. Go and tell my people to return to the old paths. Those angels that you saw that were doing nothing belong to those people that have walked away from my paths.” And the Lord repeated, “Daughter, Go and tell my people to return to the old paths,” and He started to weep. I asked Him, “Lord, why are you weeping?” At the same time I began to hear a song that went, ” Haaaaalellujah” but the voice was “Haaaaa”; it was a chorus of “Haaaaa” and then the “lellujah” followed. I told Him,

“Lord, I want you to take me over there. I want you to take me where those persons are singing.” Then He observed me; He was observing me- I could tell how He was observing me, but I couldn’t see his face – only the movements of his face. While He was watching me, his tears were pouring over his garment and I asked Him why he was weeping, but He would not explain it to me- and then we arrived at this beautiful garden.

There, among the heavenly mansions, I saw flowers that were swaying. They were the ones that were singing! And the Lord pointed with his finger and said, “Daughter, look, they praise me; they worship me! My people no longer do as they did before. My people no longer praise, no longer worship me; no longer seek me as before.

That is why I told you, Daughter, to go and tell my people to seek me, for I will go, I will go, I will go – for a people that seeks me in spirit and in truth, for a people that is ready, for a holy people!” And as He wept, He would say, “I am coming, I am coming!” Now I understand why the Lord was weeping, for the Lord is coming, but not for those that are half hearted – no. He will return for a people that is seeking Him in spirit and in truth.

Then the Lord told me that I had to return to Earth and I told Him, “Lord, I don’t want to go to Earth! What is that? What do you mean-– Earth? I want to stay with you. You brought me here and I’m not going anywhere because I am with you!

And He told me, “Daughter , it is necessary that you return to Earth to go and testify that my glory is real, that what I am going to show you is real ; that what you have seen is real – so that humanity will come to me, repent and not perish.” Weeping, I instantly knelt at his feet, and as I was inclined forward, I saw a wound on his feet. I asked Him, “Lord, what is this that you have here?” He answered, “Daughter, it’s that scar from that yesterday when I gave my life for humanity.” I stood up and He showed me the scar in his hand and when I saw it, I asked,”

Lord, why do you still have that?” He told me, “Daughter, it is the scar that has remained.” I asked him, “Tell me something: Will this go away?” He replied, “ Daughter, this will go away when all the saints are reunited here.”

Then He told me, “Daughter, I must take you to Earth: Your family and the nations are waiting for you.” I told him, “Lord, my family? I don’t have a family.” He pointed down to Earth with his finger and said, ” Look, those persons that you see down there are your relatives; that body that you see there, is where you have to return.” Then He said, “It is time to leave this place.”

Then He took me along a beautiful river, a crystal clear river and He told me, “Daughter, enter the river and submerge yourself.” Before I entered that crystalline river of living water, I was joyful, my joy was indescribable, but after I submerged myself and came out, I was elated and I thought that after entering the water I was already there and would not have to return. But the Lord told me, “Daughter, you have to return to Earth,” to which I responded, “Lord, I don’t want to go back!”

He told me, “Daughter, I am going to show you something: How I am going to go for a holy people to Earth. I am going to show you how the day of the Rapture will be.” We walked until we reached a place where I could observe a giant screen and people in it.

At the same time I could observe the whole world and how small it looked and then suddenly I saw how thousands were disappearing. Pregnant women saw their pregnancy disappear and they looked like they had gone crazy screaming. Children had disappeared everywhere and many people were running to and fro, screaming, “This can’t be, this can’t be! What’s happening?” And those who had known the Lord and were left behind were saying that Christ had come, that the Rapture had occurred and they screamed and wanted to kill themselves; wanted to hang themselves and so many other things, but they couldn’t.

The Lord told me, “Daughter, in those days, death will flee; Daughter, in those days the Holy Spirit will no longer be on Earth.” When the Lord said these words, I observed an enormous traffic and thousands of people. He told me, “Daughter, look, this is how everything will happen.” I then saw people running. There were accidents but I could not observe a single dead person: all of them were alive, although injured. They kept on running from one place to another, shouting, “Christ came, Christ came!” They would plead, “Lord, forgive me, forgive me- take me with you!”

But the Lord, very sadly said, “It” too late. The time to repent is now.” He told me, “Daughter, go tell humanity to seek me, for during that time there will no longer be opportunity. Daughter, it will be too late for all those that stay behind.”

When the Lord observed how humanity was left behind, He began to weep and only said, “Daughter, I will go to Earth as says in

1 Thes. 4: 16-17 :
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”. But not everyone will go with the Lord, only those who are doing his will and living a holy life for the Lord told me,” Only those that are holy will enter the Kingdom of Heaven,” Another very important thing which he told me: “No one knows, neither the day nor the hour in which I will go for my holy people, not even the angels know it.” As He said this, the screen which was about to close, revealed people running and magazines and TV news said that “Christ had come”. The screen closed and the Lord told me, “I will go for a holy people.”

This was all that the Lord showed me. From there He brought me back here to Earth,


FIRST PART/INTRO:

ANGELICA ELIZABETH ZAMBRANO MORA

My name is Angelica Elizabeth Zambrano Mora. I am 18, and study at the “Colegio José María Velazco Ibarra”, here at El Cantón, El Empalme, Ecuador. I first accepted Christ when I was 12, but I told myself, “None of my friends are evangelicals and I feel strange amongst them“, so I walked away from God, and lived a bad, terrible life.

But God pulled me out of there. On, my 15th Birthday, I was reconciled to the Lord, but I was still double-minded. The Bible says (James 1:8), “
A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways“

and I was one of those persons. My dad would say, “You don’t have to be like that, it looks awful, it’s wrong,”

but I would reply, “This is the way I am, and how I want to be, nobody has to tell me how I should be, nor what I should do, nor how I should dress, or behave.”
He would respond,”

God is going to deal with you. He is going to change you.“

During my 17 birthday, I came closer to the Lord. On the April 28th I came to Him and said, “Lord, I feel so bad, I know that I’m a sinner,” and I told Him how I felt. “Lord, forgive me. I want You to write my name in the Book of Life and to accept me as Your child.”

I repented and gave back my life to the Lord. I said, “Lord, I want You to change me, to make a difference in me.” I cried with all my heart, asking the Lord to change me. But, as time passed by I felt no change. The only difference was that I began to attend church, to read the Bible and to pray. That was the only change in my life.

Then, in August, I was invited to fast for 15 days. I decided to join, but before entering I said,” Lord, I want you to deal with me here.“ During the fast the Lord was speaking to almost everybody, except me!


274 posted on 06/01/2011 9:03:33 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: daniel1212; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

Basically, this is a controversy of the integrity of Scripture.

Either Scripture is accurate and correct and Joseph married Mary and delayed union with her until after Jesus was born and then they proceeded to have other children as are referenced and named in the Gospels, or they didn’t.

Now, the Catholic church makes claim to the writing and canonization of Scripture.

If indeed Mary was perpetually a virgin and everybody knew it at the time then why....

1) Did the writers of the Gospels use the word adelphos, which clearly means brother and adelphai, which clearly means sister?

2) Did the writers of the Gospels state that Joseph married Mary and make comment about their union?

And if everyone at the time knew that she was perpetually a virgin, why didn’t the writers of the Gospels simply state so in so many words. If they has simply said that Joseph married Mary and never had any union with her, that she remained perpetually virgin, then that would be that. No problem.

Instead they canonized as infallible Scripture something that at the very least can be classified as ambiguous if you really stretch it, but is not ambiguous if you simple read it as is.


275 posted on 06/01/2011 9:13:55 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cvengr

The degrees of fantasy involved with the whole complex structure of Heaven bound saints is more than preposterous.

People who will set up such an array of personages to be focused on simply pay little no attention to God’s priorties so clearly set out in His Word.


276 posted on 06/01/2011 9:14:00 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Iscool

Well, seems to me that when people become engaged the intent is to be married.

So Joseph and Mary were engaged, and then got married.

And the problem with that is.....????


277 posted on 06/01/2011 9:18:17 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cvengr

suddenly it’s more than preposterous to believe there are souls in Heaven? That’s a depressing view of God’s world.


278 posted on 06/01/2011 9:20:33 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: DManA

The folks around here used to be able to tell the difference.

I guess posting on a religious thread has its risks.


279 posted on 06/01/2011 9:21:40 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (Is there anyone that Obama won't toss under the bus?)
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To: Quix
The Church Fathers- Mary: Ever Virgin

Those fathers are abusive - feeding lies/poison to their children - a slow death with no eternal glory. These fathers robbed their children of their inheritance.

Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of Me is made up only of rules TAUGHT BY MEN".

"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, ..."
280 posted on 06/01/2011 9:21:45 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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