Theologian Clarifies Rapture, Last Days Beliefs

"This scheme has two returns of Jesus at the end of the times: one ... just for his saints and then his final return after the tribulation," Sproul summed up.

Disagreeing with this view, Sproul pointed to the imagery that the Apostle Paul used in his account of the rapture in the NT book of 1 Thessalonians.

"The whole point of the imagery here echoes and reflects something that was commonplace in the contemporary world in which Paul wrote – namely, the pattern and practice of the triumphal return to Rome of the Roman armies," the Reformed theologian stated.

After winning a battle, Roman armies would camp outside the city and send a messenger to announce their arrival. The city would then be prepared with decorations and an arch of triumph. At a prearranged time, a signal would be made whereby trumpets would be blown. That is when the armies would march in triumph into the city.

"But before they began their march at the signal of the trumpet, everyone who was an actual citizen of Rome was invited to come outside the city to join the parade to march back in through the arch of triumph with the victorious army," Sproul said.

With that, the Pittsburgh native concluded, "What I hear Paul saying is that when Jesus comes, he's going to come back to this earth with his whole church; the church will be caught up to meet him as he descends and he will continue to descend along with his whole entourage of believers."

More specifically, citing Paul's teaching, Sproul stated that those who died will rise first and be taken up into the air and those who are alive at the second coming of Christ will also be taken up to meet the Lord as he descends.

Understanding that there are a huge number of Freepers who are Catholic, and other denominations that don’t focus heavily on end-time prophecy, I know I put myself out on a limb when I discuss my belief in a rapture here on FR.

That being said, I’m no theologian or expert on the order of events in prophecy, but I’ve always took the line in scripture “”the dead in Christ will rise first,” to mean that when a Christian dies their Spirit will be lifted up to heaven at the time of death to be in the Presence of Jesus. And at the Rapture, the living Christians will join them. And most who believe in the Rapture believes this happens at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation.

I do believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture, mainly because the Tribulation period is seven years, and there is allot that needs to happen in just the first 3 ½ years of it. It would take Global Chaos for one man, the antichrist to enter the Worlds stage and deceive nearly everyone LEFT on the planet, (all the peoples of the World in all religions) in such a short period of time. The only type of “Global Disaster” I could think of on that scale would be for 200 or 300 million Christians to just vanish. And the whole point for the belief in the Rapture is we don’t believe Jesus meant for the Saved to have to suffer through the horrors that will happen to the planet during those seven years. And because he loves us so much and does not wish that any shall parish into eternal Hell, he knows it will take a great shake-up of those left to finally get them to listen. The “tough love” that so many of us fathers are familiar with. That we believe is the whole point of the Tribulation. Many will be saved during this time but they will be persecuted horribly, much like the first Church was, with public executions and torture, only to be ended with the physical return of Christ.

Amen! Sproul's fallacious interpretation of Revelation is nothing short of ridiculous. To say the prophecy of the book was fulfilled in AD 70 with the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple is laughable, especially since the book of Revelation was written over 20 years AFTER the events of AD 70 had taken place. Another problem with Sprouls errant interpretation is the description and extent of many of the judgments listed in Revelation:

There has never been a time in all of human history when hail and fire, mixed with blood has been thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. (Rev 8:7)

There has never been a time in all of human history when something like a great mountain burning with fire has been thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood, and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed. (Rev. 8:8)

There has never been a time in human history when a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters... and a third of the waters became wormwood (poisonous), and many men died from the waters. (Rev. 8:9-10)

There has never been a time in all of human history when a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way. (Rev. 8:12)

There has never been a time in human history when the bottomless pit (the holding place of demons) was opened, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them. (Rev. 9:2-6)

There has never been a time in human history when the Euphrates river dried up to permit a 200 MILLION man army to cross it and kill "a THRID OF MANKIND"! (Rev. 9:13-19, 16:12)

There has never been a time when the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and the entire sea became blood like that of a dead man; and EVERY LIVING THING in the sea died. (Rev. 16:3)

There has never been a time in human history when every spring and river on earth was turned to blood because the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they all became blood. (Rev. 16:4)

There has never been a universal devastating earthquake that is so severe that all of the islands of the earth and every mountain on earth disappeared (Rev. 16:20a)

There has never been a universal hailstorm over the entire earth in which every hail stone weighs between 80 and 100 pounds! (Rev. 16:21)

Sproul and the other Reformed naysayers can denigrate those who believe in the future literal fulfillment of the book of Revelation and the Rapture of the church all they want, they can "spiritualize" and "allegorize" the prophecies of the book of Revelation all they like but they can show no time in human history when ANY of the plagues listed in Revelation were literally fulfilled in AD 70 or any other time in human history. The only way they can make their argument is to deny, spiritualize or allegorize what God Himself has clearly said will take place.

100% of the prophecies concerning the first advent of Christ were LITERALLY, not "spiritually" fulfilled at His first coming. I believe that all of the prophecies and plagues listed in the Word of God regarding Christ's Second Advent will also LITERALLY come to pass 100% as well.

That being said, I’m no theologian or expert on the order of events in prophecy, but I’ve always took the line in scripture “”the dead in Christ will rise first,” to mean that when a Christian dies their Spirit will be lifted up to heaven at the time of death to be in the Presence of Jesus.< And at the Rapture, the living Christians will join them.

The way it looks to me, when Jesus calls us up, we which are alive will be launched up, soul, spirit AND body...But first, the bodies of those who died will raise first...And as you say, their soul has previously gone on to be with the Lord upon death...

This is a resurrection of the bodies of the dead Christians and those Christians who are alive when Jesus calls...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is not the spirit going up, this is the body coming out of the grave at the last trump...

And on the way up, our bodies will be changed...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Jmouse007 says that Sproul’s interpretation of Revelation is ridiculous. What is more ridiculous is Jmouse007’s ignorance about how to interpret the Bible. Let us take with caution anyone who says that the Bible, especially apololyptic literature, should be taken literally.

Dispensationalists say that they interpret it literally, but let’s see. When Jesus said that he is the vine (John 15:5) did he meant that he is a woody plant? Should we literally hate our mother and father to be Jesus’ disciples (Luke 14:26)? If your eye causes you to sin, should you pluck it out (Mark 9:47)? Must we sell everything we have an give it to the poor to inherit eternal life (Luke 18:18-22)? Did the mountains and the hills really break into song and the trees clap their hands (Isaiah 55:12)? Did God hold out his hands literally to an obstinate people (Isaiah 65)? Does God have hands?

Would the moon literally turn to blood before the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31)? Aren’t such statements about actual worldly judgments by God that are expressed in poetic or astonomical language rather than literal language? When God judged Babylon, an event in actual history, did the stars and sun stop giving their light (Isaiah 13:10) and the heavens tremble (Isaiah 13:13)? Given this last passage and numerous others like it in the Bible (for example, Is 24:23, Ez 32:7, Amos 5:20, 8:9, Zeph 1:15) can’t we see that the language of Revelation is of the same type as other events in covenantal history that have already been fulfilled?

In Revelation 1:4, did Jesus literally have eyes like a flame of fire? Did he literally hold seven stars (v. 16)? Did the Beasts of Rev 19 literally eat the flesh of kings and all men (v. 18)? Did the angel in Rev 20:1 have a literal key to the literall bottomless pit? The Book of lIfe in Rev 20:12, 15 literal—with paper or parchment pages?

Concerning the dating of Revelation, the 95 AD date is taken from a single statement from a single early church father that can be interpreted different ways. The fact is that many theologians are convinced that the book was written prior to 70 AD as the book nowhere mentions the destruction of Jerusalem in the past tense and is suggested in Rev 11 that in fact it was still standing when the book was written.

Here are a couple of links:

www.faithfacts.org/bible-101/interpreting-the-bible

www.prophecyquestions.wordpress.com

I am currently reading this book. A much different story than Camping's

BTW, this book was written in 1881; you wouldn't believe how accurate it is!

Reading this book was one of the greatest graces of my life!"
— St. Thérèse of Lisieux

In the late nineteenth century, Father Charles Arminjon, a priest from the mountains of southeastern France, assembled his flock in the town cathedral to preach a series of conferences to help them turn their thoughts away from this life’s mean material affairs—and toward the next life’s glorious spiritual reward. His wise and uncompromising words deepened in them the spirit of recollection that all Christians must have: the abiding conviction that heavenly aims, not temporal enthusiasms, must guide everything we think, say, and do.

When Father Arminjon’s conferences were later published in a book, many others were able to reap the same benefit—including fourteen-year-old Thérèse Martin, then on the cusp of entering the Carmelite convent in Lisieux. Reading it, she says, “plunged my soul into a happiness not of this earth.” Young Thérèse, filled with a sense of “what God reserves for those who love him, and seeing that the eternal rewards had no proportion to the light sacrifices of life,” copied out numerous passages and memorized them, “repeating unceasingly the words of love burning in my heart.”

Now the very book that so inspired the Little Flower is available for the first time in English.

Let the pages of The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life fill you with the same burning words of love, with the same ardent desire to know God above all created things, that St. Thérèse gained from them. Let them also enrich your understanding of certain teachings of the Faith that can often seem so mysterious, even frightening:

The signs that will precede the world’s end
The coming of the Antichrist, and how to recognize him
The Judgment and where it may send us: heaven, hell, and purgatory
Biblical end-times prophecy: how to read it and not be deceived
Jesus commands us to be ever-watchful for his return, and ever-mindful that we have no lasting city on earth. The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life is an invaluable aid to inculcating in your spirit that heavenly orientation, without which true human happiness cannot be found—in this world or the next.

“Jmouse007 says that Sproul’s interpretation of Revelation is ridiculous. What is more ridiculous is Jmouse007’s ignorance about how to interpret the Bible. Let us take with caution anyone who says that the Bible, especially apololyptic [sic] literature, should be taken literally.”

__________________________________

In fact, what’s ridiculous is to paint Dispensationalists as advocates of wooden literalism.

“The primary way in which critics of our prophecy views attack what we believe the Bible teaches is to distort our view of literal interpretation. They like to paint us as ones who believe in ‘wooden literalism,’ which they now label as simply literalism. This is assumed by them to be a naïve, sophomoric understanding of biblical literature. Many have answered these claims and tried to set the record straight, but they are increasingly falling upon the deaf ears of opponents who simply refuse to listen...”

More here:

LITERAL VS. ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-LiteralvsAllegorical.pdf

Agreed. Preterism is ridiculous.

You probably already know all this but here are a few more resources debunking Preterism and partial Preterism:

Not long ago at the Pre-Trib Study Group conference in Dallas, TX, futurist Dr. Mark Hitchcock clearly and decisively won the debate against partial Preterist (though he refuses to call himself that) Hank Hanegraaff.

Soon after, Dr. Hitchcock spoke at another conference, discussing material presented at the debate.

An mp3 audio of that presentation is available free online, as is a video version. At the following link, scroll down the page to:

Dr. Mark Hitchcock - A.D. 95 - Defending the Traditional Date of Revelation

http://deanbible.org/andromeda.php?q=f&f=%2FAudio+Files%2FWHBC+Guest+Speakers+and+Conferences%2FChafer+Theological+Seminary+Pastors+Conferences%2F2008+-+Chafer+Theological+Seminary+Pastors+Conf

In addition, some helpful articles:

A Case for the Futurist Interpretation of the Book of Revelation
by Dr. Andy Woods
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Woods-ACasefortheFuturistI.pdf

A Futurist Response to the Preterist Interpretation of Babylon in Revelation 17-18
by Dr. Andy Woods
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Woods-AFuturistResponsetot.pdf

Preterism
by Dr. Randall Price
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/price/15rp.pdf

Has Bible Prophecy Already Been Fulfilled?
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-HasBibleProphecyAlrea.pdf

Gary Demar’s End Times Fiction
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-GaryDemarsEndTimesFic.pdf

A Review of Hank Hanegraaff’s The Apocalypse Code
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-AReviewofHankHanegra.pdf

An Assessment of Kenneth L. Gentry’s Internal Evidence for Dating Revelation
by Dr. Robert Thomas
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Thomas-AnAssessmentofKennet.pdf

Preterism and Zechariah 12-14
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-PreterismandZechariah.pdf

Josephus and the Fall of Jerusalem: An Evaluation of the Preterist View on Jerusalem in Prophecy
by Dr. Wayne House
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/House-JosephusandtheFallof.pdf

I know I put myself out on a limb when I discuss my belief in a rapture here on FR.

I'm one of FR's few resident postmillennialists. Eschatology (future events) should be an outgrowth of our beliefs re discipleship and evangelism (present events). IMO it should not be the other way around. I was persuaded, years ago, to change my eschatological view from Premillennial to Postmillennial because I couldn't justify how Christians could be "victorious" today and simultaneously rushing towards a Great Tribulation tomorrow.

To believe that the world will wax worse and worse, and that lawlessness will increase until the Great Tribulation (or at least until the Rapture), one must conclude that either A) transformed lives don't accomplish jack squat when working in groups, meaning groups can't be transformed B) God doesn't plan on transforming lives in the future, or b) the transformed life is but a temporary phenomena. Either that, or one must jettison the idea that there are any signs of the times that we can watch for, i.e. the world will not get worse and worse prior to the Rapture. But very few premils believe this.

Now most Americans (but not all) approach the issue from the POV of Scofield-flavored Dispensational Premillennialism, and they would say "You don't polish the brass on a sinking ship!", as did evangelist Dwight L. Moody in the 19th century. The culture will not (cannot) be redeemed by anything - not even by a wholesale repentance and conversion of the population - nothing short of the physical return of Christ will have any lasting impact on it, and thus the most a redeemed man can hope for is a ticket out of here. Such thinking would have us believe that the Great Commission commands us to "go ye therefore and make converts of all nations".

If your eschatology teaches that Christians shouldn't "polish the brass on a sinking ship", you will probably discount or avoid altogether other ship-related skills as hull & sail repair, mastering sea-sickness, and simple navigation. What good is it to ask people to repent and convert, and not prepare them for how to live afterward? The Great Commission commands us to make disciples, not converts. Disciples do more than learn how to make more converts. A man cannot repent of his old behavior, unless he has a new set of behaviors to substitute for them! And can those new behaviors be expected to "do" anything in his life? In his children's lives? In the culture around him?

"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men."
-- Matthew 5:13

If we extrapolate Dispensationalism backwards, we come to the conclusion that living one's life for Christ in any era doesn't add up to jack squat statistically or sociologically, whereas living one's life for Satan has a statistically measurable, progressively successful effect on society in every era. Even if the church manages to actually achieve a net growth in the number of believers, Dispensational Premillennialism tells us that those believers won't accomplish jack in the way of impacting, let alone redeeming, the culture around them. Their lives won't be transformed or have any effect in any statistically meaningful way, long-term. Christians will be losers in every area of culture and history. There's no way for the world to move towards a Great Tribulation unless this is true (classic Premillennialism actually has a way around this, but Dispensationalism IMO does not). The Gospel offers no hope for man or his world, beyond a supernatural "get out of jail free!" card.

And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall watch the mountain groweth before him until it fills the whole earth, even unto crushing all the saints beneath it, yet yeah verily ye will declareth victory over whatsoever ye saith until death.
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and keep ye deluding yourselves until that day when I will return unto you and finally accomplish Myself what ye could not do in My Name."
-- Mark 11:22-24, Pretrib Dispensational Version

Ultimately, for me the issue came down to pretty much just one question: which is the most powerful event in history - Adam's Fall, or Christ's Redemption? I came to believe it's the latter - and because of it, I switched my eschatology. IMO Dispensationalists believe the former (Adam's Fall) is the more powerful of the two.

Those of us holding the POV of Postmillennialism and the Reformation would say that the blood of Christ is capable of redeeming everything affected by the Fall. Post-redemption, we believe that the Bible gives us guidelines in how to behave, as redeemed individuals, in every area of life. We expect that redemption progressively flows outward from the repentant/obedient soul, the impact compounded by the number of repentant/obedient souls, to ultimately effect a positive change in culture and politics and art and everything produced by man. So long as Christians are obedient, they will positively impact the culture around them, and the long-term effect will be a statistically measurable redemption/restoration of their world, prior to the physical, literal return of Christ.

The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
-- Psalm 110:1

“Jmouse007 says that Sproul’s interpretation of Revelation is ridiculous. What is more ridiculous is Jmouse007’s ignorance about how to interpret the Bible"

Sir, you neither know me or my qualifications to speak on the subject and yet you deign to speak as one having insight into both.

Having taught Hermeneutics along with Systematic Theology, Eschatology as well as the the book of Revelation on the graduate and undergraduate level on numerous occasions since 1994 I take serious offense at the uneducated, ignorant and dubious statements you made within your post. You have impugned my character and qualifications. In the future you would be well advised to keep your mouth shut until you have your facts straight before you speak or post.

As for your post, you failed to sight one instance in which any of the plagues clearly stated within my post have ever taken place in all of recorded human history.

Regarding the book of Revelation, I would strongly recommend you read Robert L. Thomas's exegetical commentary on Revelation. He is no exegetical novice, he has no axe to grind and does a masterful job of simply looking at the text and the original languages. He deals with all of the interpretational positions on the subject and lets the chips fall where they may.

http://www.amazon.com/Revelation-1-7-Commentary-Wycliffe-Exegetical/dp/0802492657/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1306283488&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Revelation-8-22-Commentary-Wycliffe-Exegetical/dp/0802492673/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306283488&sr=8-1

One more thing; should you impugn my character or qualifications again I will report you to the FR moderator.

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