Posted on 03/26/2011 12:59:03 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
At an intensely combative and vitriolic hearing Friday afternoon in a sex-abuse case that has shaken the Philadelphia Archdiocese to its core, a state court judge shocked one priest's defense attorney by disclosing that the government thinks he might be a witness as a former seminarian and could be disqualified from the case. The lawyer, who represents one of three current and former Roman Catholic priests charged with raping boys in their parish, fired back that prosecutors were being "anti-Catholic" and had uttered an "abomination."
Judge Renee Cardwell Hughes told defense attorney Richard DeSipio that she's received information that "might make you, in fact, a witness because of events that occurred while you were a seminarian."
The information "stems from the fact that you attended the seminary with a student who asserts he was abused," Hughes said, adding that DeSipio "may possess factual knowledge about abuse that occurred with that student."
She added that the substance of the claim that DiSipio witnessed something is still unclear. "I just don't know if it's true," Hughes said. "I really don't know if it's true."
Yelling and visibly upset, DeSipio demanded that the government, then and there, identify the source of the allegation. "Let them spill it out right now!" DeSipio demanded.
"How dare they send you a letter about that," DeSipio said, referring to the district attorney's office. "That's an abomination."
Prosecutors said only that part of DeSipio's seminary training overlapped with the tenure of a senior clergyman accused of endangering children by failing to protect them from priests with a known history of abuse.
Monsignor William Lynn, now pastor of St. Joseph Church in Downingtown, Pa., is reportedly the highest-ranking member of the Roman Catholic Church in the United States ever to be charged with child endangerment. Between 1984 and 1992, he served as dean of men at St. Charles Borromeo Seminary in Wynnewood, Pa., according to his biography on St. Joseph's website. As the secretary for clergy for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia from 1992 to 2004, Lynn acted as personnel director for priests. He is accused of ignoring reports of abuse, covering up for them and putting children in danger.
"They are anti-Catholic. I'll say it," DiSipio fumed. "[The district attorney is] attacking me as a Catholic!"
The judge rejected DiSipio's claim. "Attack you? You attacked me! You don't even know me!" Hughes said, referring to a prior argument over the necessity of a preliminary hearing, another hotly contested issue Friday afternoon.
"Mr. DeSipio, I suggest you shut up," Hughes said. "People are coming from out of the woodwork [to provide information to the commonwealth.]"
If the government can prove the allegation is credible in 30 days, DeSipio will be disqualified as the archdiocese's attorney.
"You can change lawyers now, you can change lawyers in 30," the judge warned DeSipio's client, the Rev. James Brennan. "[But] there are some conflicts that are not waivable."
DeSipio argued that the 30-day investigation was "really unfair to Father Brennan," given his mounting legal costs.
Judge Hughes was livid that DeSipio spoke up again. "If you open your mouth one more time I am going to have the sheriff take you out of here," she told DeSipio.
As DeSipio continued to argue, Hughes said she might have him "locked up and held in contempt." Instead she issued a gag order, responding to what she observed as attorneys having "gone to the airways to advocate."
"No more interviews with anyone," the judge ruled.
"Does that include the DA going on Chris Matthews' 'Hardball' and going to the New York Times," defense attorney Michael McGovern asked.
The judge responded affirmatively: "I don't want tweets. I don't want Facebook. I don't want IMs [instant messages]."
Hughes said the court will revisit the gag order on April 15, when defendants are to be arraigned. That date also marks the deadline for the DA to provide the defense with the first batch of discovery, she said.
All but one of the defense attorneys challenged the government's amendment to its case, which added a conspiracy charge that had not explicitly been requested of the grand jury.
"The issue here is that if the DA seeks to amend, it has to be subject to some sort of prima facie determination," the defense argued.
The judge found otherwise, ruling that the commonwealth established "good cause" in its pleadings and that "there is no constitutional right - federal or state - for a preliminary hearing."
It was "a technical error on the commonwealth not to charge conspiracy" originally, Hughes said. "Conspiracy is made," and the defendants will not be afforded a preliminary hearing, she ruled.
Hughes said there was abundant evidence to support the amendment.
"I'm the only person, besides the prosecutors, who has seen every stitch of evidence," she said.
Defense attorney McGovern argued that her admission was precisely the problem.
"Your Honor, this is patently unfair!" McGovern said. "You know the evidence. They know the evidence. I don't know what the evidence is! I haven't seen any!"
The attorney said proceeding to trial without a preliminary hearing was like saying, "Let's have a dart game in a dark room."
"What kind of country is this where we have this?" he shouted.
The judge yelled back, baring her teeth: "You sit down! Sit, sit, sit!"
DeSipio agreed with McGovern that their clients deserve a preliminary hearing, which could allow them to confront their accusers.
"There's no witness. I know that they [the prosecutors] don't like that he's in jail," DeSipio said. "This accuser says there was an erect penis in his buttocks."
"Was it in your buttocks, or was it in your anus," he asked rhetorically. "If that question wasn't asked [of the grand jury], and he didn't specify anus or butt cheeks, I have a right to ask that."
"What you can't do, and what I submit they're trying to do, is say just because we have a grand jury, we have good cause [to by-pass a preliminary hearing]," DeSipio said.
The judge also addressed a potential conflict of interest concerning Monsignor Lynn, who unlike the three current and former priests, faces child endangerment charges - not rape or sexual assault. Plans for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia to pay Lynn's legal costs present "a whole array of conflicts that I can't even imagine at this point in time," Hughes said.
"It's real simple," the judge said to Lynn, who was donning his clerical collar, "your master is the person that's putting bread on the table."
"It may be in your best interest to put forth a defense that attacks other people [or the church]," Hughes said.
She told Lynn he was putting himself in the position of receiving "advice from people who are being paid by people whose interests don't necessarily align with yours."
The stakes of this gamble could amount to "14 years of incarceration versus probation," she said.
Lynn, in a calm voice, declined. "Well, I trust these two men." he said, adding that the church hadn't placed any conditions on the payment of his legal costs.
Hughes was incredulous. "You are making a knowing, voluntary and intelligent decision to place yourself in conflict with your attorneys?" she asked.
"I am," Lynn responded, waiving his right to any future appeal based on the argument that his attorneys had a conflict of interest.
"Then we're moving forward," the judge said.
After arraignments and release of the first batch of discovery, which will include grand jury notes and testimony, on April 15, the government will begin putting together a second batch. The government said that batch would take longer to produce, as it will include roughly 10,000 pages of documentation, much of which will need to be redacted.
Hughes said the government must give the defense a specific timeline for the production of the second batch. "There has to be some finality," she said.
In January, a grand jury returned an indictment for rape and sexual assault against one current priest, one defrocked priest and one man who taught at a Catholic school. Monsignor Lynn, the third cleric who worked for the archdiocese as secretary of clergy, is accused of giving known abusers easy access to minors.
It was not a personal statement to say you did not know this priest. Again you are not a mod.
Implying you were dishonest was too harsh and out of line. I apologize for my haste and my unfairness. I meant you were presenting my opinion in such a way (out of context and incomplete) that it actually appeared to contradict what I truly believe.
I have not said that. I have said I agree with the Church investigating along with appropriate civil authorities. I have also said that not all allegations rise to being credible.
There is a small part of Church culture that is to blame. The first was the growing acceptance and outright encouragement of homosexuality in the seminaries. The people training priests fell for the whole modern lies about sexuality and the right to express it. Too long to go into here but if you do a search you can find articles regarding how the culture of homosexuality came to be so common in the seminaries.
The second is the culture that confuses respect for the office with the idea that those who occupy it are somehow not capable of such horrible personal sins. The idea that a priest can do no wrong. This is common for others in positions of authority. But truly people had blinders on when it came to the conduct of some priests. Like all pedophiles or those who prey on adolescents these sick bastards carefully groomed their victims. But they can only do this if they have access. Their being priests is what gave them this access. I think red flags would have gone up for many parents if another adult male had sought out their children for so much private time. The parents trusted the priests and the priests took advantage of this.
Protestants are our Christian brothers. Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals and even the non-OPC/PCA Presbyterians worship our Loving Christian God.
They disagree with us, yet do not resort to the language of hate, but lovingly explain their positions to us and lovingly disagree with us.
I object on behalf of my Protestant Christian brethern to calling these anti-Catholic posters on this thread as "Protestants". They are not filled with the love of Christ. Rather they are filled with the hate of the enemy.
It is obvious in ever post that they post. They are so utterly consumed with their need to spread bile and hatred that they are blinded by it.
That is why the attacks on Christians increase during this period. That is why we see the frustrated lashings out of the followers of the enemy -- posting anything they can to attack and spread their hate. The enemy will say or do anything to divert our attention away from prayer and contemplation.
Let us not fall for these tactics, but let us pray for these -- the more we pray for these haters of Christ and His Church, the more the enemy is infuriated.
We must remember to tell Satan and his minions by praying to Our Lord Jesus Christ and telling the enemy "Vade retro satana / Numquam suade mihi vana" -- translation: "Step back Satan / Never tempt me with vain things"
I agree, not just as a Conservative, but as a Catholic.
The problem is not as endemic as the media would have people believe, but any instance of hypocrisy--especially in issues involving sexual aberration--undermines the mission of the Church and should not be tolerated. In some cases, the criticism is justifiable.
Others on this thread have posted as if the problems were in every parish, that somehow the Catholic Church was in league with pedophiles and homosexuals on some widespread basis. The advice of the Apostle Paul in the verses you cited, had it been followed, would have prevented this, and the ranks of the clergy need to be purged of those who are guilty.
I'll grant there have been problems, as in every church, and that those were handled badly in some cases.
That needs to be rectified.
I also believe it is no accident that the media saturate the market with those stories when they occur, to undermine the thousands of forthright and upstanding members of the Catholic clergy, with the intent of Alinskying the Church--isolate, defame, and destroy--something which past policies in some dioceses have unwittingly played into.
That the Liberal media do this is no accident; the Church remains, with all its apparent flaws (those of humans) a major impediment to the goals of the Liberals.
Thank you for a reasonable and scriptural reply.
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals | from the OPC doctrinal website{the OPC} sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Lutherans | "The liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture" by an OPC poster: |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Methodists: | From the opc doctrinal website:. Are Arminian (Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptist etc) preachers heretics? yes"we see the inherent Satanism of Free-Will Arminianism" (accusing Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. who disagree with Calvin of preaching a gospel of Satan |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Methodists | "John Wesley preached Universal Infant Damnation for unbaptized infants -- which is unsurprising, because Wesley preached the Gospel of Satan" by a PCA poster |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Judaism | Acording to the OPC "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. " |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Catholics together as targets of the OPC/PCA message of hate | The PCA view expressed by one prominent member here on FR: "This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics." |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred and evil against Christians martyred by Moslems in the Middle East | This man followed the wrong teachings of ... and we know what happens to such people. Heaven is for the elect. |
| preaching hatred against the Eastern Orthodox | Insinuating that the E. Orthodox are not helping others in Japan |
| preaching hatred against Adventists | The Adventists are a cult that is as dangerous as the Jehovahs Witnesses or the Mormons |
| revealing their true beliefs that Christianity means only Calvinism and only their particular brand of Calvinism |
|
Who are these hatred mongers of the OPC/PCA? What do they preach?
They preach:
How numerous is this group spreading hatred?
The OPC and PCA combine consisting of about 400,000 people, yet the OPC was formed in the 1930s and has had two splits since then. It is heading for it's third and final split before it's destruction.
This is what an ex-Ruling Elder of the OPC says about this group:
Are they spreading their message of hate?
Despite the crowing that one may hear or read, the actual numbers show a large number leaving the Presbyterians as a whole
| 2009 membership | 2010 membership | Lost | Gained | |
| PCUSA | 2,934,952 | 2,844,952 | 90,000 | |
| PCA | 335,000 | 340,000 | 5,500 | |
| OPC | 21,123 | 21,530 | 407 | |
| Disappearing Presbyterians | 84,100 |
The PCA is 300,000 in membership, and a recent man-made creation. It is already in disarray over Federal Vision and deaconesses. It is heading down the path to having practising homosexual pastors in partnerships
They are already having extortion going on like the ECUSA, it's already showing signs of splitting -- signs which are even stronger in the other denomination, the OPC which is not expected to survive to see the centenary of it's founding by it's Head Prophet and Perpetual Ruling Elder Gresham Machen.
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals | from the OPC doctrinal website{the OPC} sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Lutherans | "The liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture" by an OPC poster: |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Methodists: | From the opc doctrinal website:. Are Arminian (Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptist etc) preachers heretics? yes"we see the inherent Satanism of Free-Will Arminianism" (accusing Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. who disagree with Calvin of preaching a gospel of Satan |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Methodists | "John Wesley preached Universal Infant Damnation for unbaptized infants -- which is unsurprising, because Wesley preached the Gospel of Satan" by a PCA poster |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Judaism | Acording to the OPC "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. " |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Catholics together as targets of the OPC/PCA message of hate | The PCA view expressed by one prominent member here on FR: "This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics." |
| OPC/PCA preaching hatred and evil against Christians martyred by Moslems in the Middle East | This man followed the wrong teachings of ... and we know what happens to such people. Heaven is for the elect. |
| preaching hatred against the Eastern Orthodox | Insinuating that the E. Orthodox are not helping others in Japan |
| preaching hatred against Adventists | The Adventists are a cult that is as dangerous as the Jehovahs Witnesses or the Mormons |
| revealing their true beliefs that Christianity means only Calvinism and only their particular brand of Calvinism |
|
Who are these hatred mongers of the OPC/PCA? What do they preach?
They preach:
How numerous is this group spreading hatred?
The OPC and PCA combine consisting of about 400,000 people, yet the OPC was formed in the 1930s and has had two splits since then. It is heading for it's third and final split before it's destruction.
This is what an ex-Ruling Elder of the OPC says about this group:
Are they spreading their message of hate?
Despite the crowing that one may hear or read, the actual numbers show a large number leaving the Presbyterians as a whole
| 2009 membership | 2010 membership | Lost | Gained | |
| PCUSA | 2,934,952 | 2,844,952 | 90,000 | |
| PCA | 335,000 | 340,000 | 5,500 | |
| OPC | 21,123 | 21,530 | 407 | |
| Disappearing Presbyterians | 84,100 |
The PCA is 300,000 in membership, and a recent man-made creation. It is already in disarray over Federal Vision and deaconesses. It is heading down the path to having practising homosexual pastors in partnerships
They are already having extortion going on like the ECUSA, it's already showing signs of splitting -- signs which are even stronger in the other denomination, the OPC which is not expected to survive to see the centenary of it's founding by it's Head Prophet and Perpetual Ruling Elder Gresham Machen.
Fixed it for you
Hoss
And yet your cult, the OPC is neither Evangelical nor truly Christian. Stop pretending to speak for our Protestant Christian brethern.
Protestants are Christians -- the OPC is not.
The OPC, that minuscule cult that says that Pentecostals and Methodists are damnable heretics who follow the gospel of Satan are dwindling -- from the 1930s when it was formed, through the two splits (and the third upcoming), it is 20,000 people in total
it's no wonder that people leave this cult (a larger version of the Westboro BC) -- the OPC is founded on hate, not on the love of Christ
Your group desperately tries to claim that it speaks for all Protestants, but it does not -- we know the facts, your group's very website spouts it's hatred against all those who are not in this OPC.
WPaCon mentioned Baptists who are Christians and of course, the OPC is not even mentioned (perhaps it should be listed under the non-Christian cults section?) -- and we have seen OPC posters spouting their hatred of Baptists and saying things like The problem with non-denominational churches is that there's nothing to stop the congregation from deciding to become Mormon or Unitarian, etc.
There is something to be said for a diagonal form of church structuring, like the Presbyterians -- organized by a representative group of congregants. This actually strengthens the Christian imperative rather than dilutes it as so many non-denominational churches tend to do.
| We know how much the OPC hates Baptists and Pentecostals The OPC says this about the Baptists and Pentecostals that The problem with non-denominational churches is that there's nothing to stop the congregation from deciding to become Mormon or Unitarian, etc |
So... Does the Roman Catholic "Church" (or you) deny that scripture is inspired by God? If you so, scripture is being denied. Remember: in scripture it is written that it is "God-breathed." This not my opinion; it is God's.
I don’t know why that’s a newsflash. Who disagrees with that?
The Roman Catholic "Church" does--just showed you from its own catechism. 2 Tim. 2:5. Check it out.
You’re opinions are cold, hard facts?
When backed up with the word of God, opinions BECOME facts. Also, I note you did not provide scriptural proof to refute what I wrote; instead, the tired old canard of "man made" ideas are trotted out. Try learning what Sola Scriptura really means; education is a good thing!
Hoss
The OPC and the PCA (combined are 350,000) posters have one aim only -- attacking anyone who is not a member of their little groups (see my post 748 where the OPC website and OPC/PCA posters call Methodists & Pentecostals as damnable heretics, condemn Lutherans, curse Orthodox and Bhatti (the Christian martyr in Pakistan) etc )
The OPC/PCA seems to be no more than a larger version of the Westboro Baptists -- and like them they do not serve Christ.
The bible refers to the OrthodoPresbyterian and Presbyterian C in America (OPC/PCA) when we read:
Proverbs 6:12-14
A worthless person, a wicked man (OPC/PCA),
Walks with a perverse mouth;
He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.
The clear implication of what the judge said (as she waved the letter around) is that the lead defense counsel is a sex criminal.
Someone try that on either of you I think you'd blow a few gaskets.
Or, maybe you wouldn't. Frankly, I don't know ~ but the fact neither of you are all that excited about the prosecution and the judge appearing to do that to the defense at this stage suggests that you may well be emotionally numb or that you think anyone who would defend folks accused of pedophilia of being being a pedophile.
Remember, over the years as this sort of thing has become common (trials for pedophilia) it's been the prosecutors who are overzealous with regard to tossing around accusations of pedophilia (SEE: Little Rascals Day Care) and the judges who are prone to turning pedophiles loose (SEE: almost any trial court in Vermont).
The government (prosecutors and judges) appear to never be beyond outrageous behavior themselves eh~
No, you made it incorrect.
Which one of Webster’s definitions of heresy says “the Catholic Church?”
No. I'm saying that just as the Holy Spirit worked through sinful, fallible men to create the Bible, the Holy Spirit also works through sinful, fallible men in the Church. How can Protestants say that the Church is not trustworthy because it is composed of fallible men, but have no problem with a Book written by fallible men.
The Roman Catholic "Church" does--just showed you from its own catechism.
Really? I didn't see the line where it said God is not sovereign.
the tired old canard of "man made" ideas are trotted out.
It's not a canard, and it's trotted out again because it's true again.
Try learning what Sola Scriptura really means;
Stop acting like I don't.
education is a good thing!
That's why I'm giving you one.
So... when you believe or quote a passage of scripture... let’s say John 3:16, then it’s only your opinion that Christ said that if we believe in Him we will have everlasting life? That is opinion?
If God says it, it IS. No opinion about it at all. When God tells us we are to have no other gods before Him, is it a suggestion, or a command? Doesn’t that rate as fact?
If Christ teaches us to pray to the Father, does that mean it’s an opinion only?
Nice, but again, fail.
Hoss
How can it be said? Because it's true. Scripture is inerrant -- it was not "written" by fallible men in that they originated the content; the Holy Spirit -- God -- inspired them to write scripture. The Roman Catholic "Church" isn't responsible for writing the Bible; God's word would be made manifest regardless -- as it was made manifest through the actions of GOD ALMIGHTY. He used fallible men, true -- just like he used a fallible, fallen woman named Mary to bear Christ -- to record HIS words. We have scripture despite the Romish "Church."
Really? I didn't see the line where it said God is not sovereign.
Nice attempt at deflection -- the quote from the catechism spoke specifically of Mary's "roles" -- one of which the "Church" defines as 'Mediatrix' -- I challenged you to find that in scripture in light of 1 Tim. 2:5. But, instead of confronting that, you ask about sovereignty? Go back and re-read the post.
Stop acting like I don't.
Who's acting? Not me. It IS an old, worn-out canard flung about by the Roman Catholic "Church" to try to refute Sola Scriptura without really knowing what means. Do you think it means that you have to find something word-for-word in scripture? If you do, you're incorrect. Basically it means that scripture is the ultimate authority for doctrine and teaching -- because it is the inerrant, inspired word of God.
That's why I'm giving you one.
That's a laugh! Got your ruler handy? *Snort* Gimme a break. I'm still waiting for an explanation for the conundrum between the Roman Catholic "Church" catechism that ascribes to Mary the authority to mediate when it stands in direct opposition to 1 Tim. 2:5... you know... God's word. "Educate" me on that...
Keep swingin' --
Hoss
Their deity will not take repentence, so the followers of the OPC/PCA will say that the person never was Christian at all!
To answer, they twist their weasel-words as
First between true and false conversion. The Bible recognizes that not everyone who says he believes in Christ really doesVoilą! (by the way, that means "see there" in French) -- the followers of Calvin-Machen use their rubber dictionaries to say "Oh, they never were Christian in the first place!"
Salvation of Infants Who DieThe OPC believes that God pre-damns infants to eternal hell. This isn't the Christian God of Love.
The Confession entertains the idea that at least some infants who die in infancy and some others "who are incapable of being outwardly called" are among the elect.
However, the Confession does not say that all such infants, etc., are saved.
| 12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live. |
| John 4:42 describes Christ as "the Savior of the world," 1 John 2:2 Christ "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 Timothy 4:10 God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." |
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