Posted on 03/19/2011 10:57:34 PM PDT by dangus
"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." -- Luke 1:47
It is undeniable, that "Savior" in this sense alludes to being saved from sin. So the question is: If Mary had never sinned, or was never guilty of original sin, as the Catholic Church states, why would she need a Savior?
As in English, in Greek word for "Savior" ("soter") comes from the word for "safe" ("sozo"). In modern English, the connection between "safe" and "heal" is largely lost, but "salvation" retains the root, "salv," from "salve," meaning "heal" or "a healing ointment." Thus, the notion of a "savior" being one who restores health, or undoes harm is not a completely incorrect notion. But neither should it overshadow the fundamental meaning that a "savior" is one who prevents harm, as much as one who restores one from harm.
Therefore, it should hardly be surprising that one who has been prevented from original sin should rejoice in her "savior" from original sin.
In fact, the term "savior" in Greek has a connotation of a god who preserves his people. As explained in the Protestant lexicon, Strong's Concordance,:
The name was given by the ancients to deities, esp. tutelary deities, to princes, kings, and in general to men who had conferred signal benefits upon their country, and in more degenerate days by the way of flattery to personages of influence.(Wigram) The word soter was a common Greek epithet for the gods (e.g., Zeus, Apollo, and Hermes), active personalities in world affairs (e.g., Epicurus) and rulers (e.g., Ptolemy Philopator, and later Roman Emporers). (cf. LSJ and BDAG)God certainly was Mary's Lord and Protector, who kept her safe from sin. That does not mean she sinned.
But doesn't Paul state that "all have sinned?" Is Paul wrong?
Not in the least. As Protestant theologian Charles Spurgeon explains (in an alternate context) the meaning of "all," (in Greek, "pas"):
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).In context, what Paul is saying is that Jews (in general) and Greeks (in general), and every other people (in general) have sinned. To establish that Jews are no better than any other people, he quotes the prophet Isaiah,
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.In this passage, the prophet is describing the Jews around him, and uses the phrase, "There is no-one righteous, not one." It's been argued that the prophet is describing in a prophetic sense not just the Jews around him, but the universal condition of man, as a result of original sin. It might make sense to say that all we who have committed original sin are not righteous in a sense, since our righteousness is imputed righteousness, earned not by our own effort, but by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways and the way of peace they do not know.
" "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
But that same passage asserts that not one has done anything good at all, that they know not the way of peace, and there is no fear of God among anyone. Even if our righteousness is merely imputed, and our ability to do good relies entirely on Christ acting through us, regenerated Christians do good, know the way of peace and fear God. As such, we know that Paul is using that passage only to establish that Jews need Christ as much as Gentiles, for they have been as wicked as Gentiles, he is not using that passage to describe saved Christians.
But the Blessed Virgin Mary lived (in part) before the Holy Sacrifice, the Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit? How can she have been saved from sin?
The bible explicitly states that salvation occurred anticipating these events. For the prophet Simeon stated upon seeing the infant Jesus, "Mine eyes have seen thy salvation." How could this be? Whose salvation has he witnessed?
Mary's.
I’m curious . . .
Have you ever spent a season of fasting and prayer asking God to show you HIS PERSPECTIVE on Mary?
>> If “offending” Christ’s divinity on earth were an issue, wouldn’t the ultimate offense to his divinity be agreeing to be nailed to a cross? If He was willing to suffer the ultimate humiliation on behalf of His sinner children, then surely coming into this world through one of them would be no offense at all by comparison. <<
Absolutely, but we sinners did that.
Any chance of you offering evidence of this?
. . . NONE GREATER BORN OF WOMAN THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST.
Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
That single verse—were RC’s to truly hear it as Christ asserted it—would shred the whole of the Vatican Cult edifice.
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
SO WOULD THOSE VERSES.
Yet the hierarchy and millions of the sheeple WILL NOT TOLERATE CHRIST’S WORDS PENETRATING THEIR IDOLATROUS HEARTS ON SUCH A KEY MATTER. So they will all too likely continue in their idiolatries to their eternal hurt.
And the empty blame . . . “But that’s all I was taught . . . that’s all I saw demonstrated before me!” will echo coldly through the black halls of eternity.
.
Visions of the Rapture, Tribulation, the Holy City, & the Thrones of GOD and satan.
The testimony of an 8 year old girl who encountered Jesus Christ.
(Jannet Balderas Canel
. . .
It was so beautiful; the presence of the Lord could be felt there, such glory and majesty! The Lord said, “Servant, come here because I will show you other things.” We arrive at a place with many beautiful doors, so many beautiful doors. I said, “Lord what’s behind those doors?” He said,
3 “Behind these doors are My disciples, behind these doors are My apostles, behind these doors are all those who once walked over the Earth praising and glorifying My Name.” -
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MARY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
We began to ride again and arrive at a door that was half-opened, and the Lord said,
“Servant come here, come here because behind this door is Mary. Get close and hear what she is saying, so you can go and tell My people, so you can tell the people how Mary is suffering.”
I got closer and saw a young lady, such a beautiful young lady, so beautiful, her face was so pretty. She was looking through a very tiny window. She was kneeling down and looking to the face of the Earth, crying with tremendous pain.
She said, “Why are you worshiping me? Why, if I do not have any power! Why are you worshiping me? I do not do anything! Do not worship me! Do not bow before me! For I cannot save you! The only one that can save, the only one that can redeem you is Jesus, who died for all mankind!
Many people say that I have power, that I can perform miracles, but that is a lie! I do not do anything! Almighty God was satisfied with me and He used my womb so that Jesus could be born and save everyone, but I don’t have any power.
I cannot do anything! Do not bow before me! Do not worship me! For I am not worthy of worship. The only one that is worthy, the only one that you bow before and adore is Jesus! He is the only one that heals and saves!”
I could see how that young lady was in such tremendous pain, full of anguish and crying. She said, “No! No! Do not worship me! Why do you bow before me? I don’t do anything!”
You see dear brothers, it was a tremendous thing to look at this young lady, how she was crying with such pain and sadness.
Well, if Dr. Eckleberg and Lorraine Boettner said it, it must be true. (/sarc)
Lol! Recycling your own posts on the same thread!
Well, if an eight-year-old girl dreamt it, it had to be true.
My sister once had a dream that she was being chased by a traffic sign. I guess now we know the real reason the gummint keeps replacing traffic signs.
Yes. I do belive he honors Mary which came from my prayer results. I prayed and prayed. I had the Catholic explanation from a website that I believed came up by God. I was praying in front of the Computer not even thinking I would get an answer from the computer. I did not touch the computer. This Immaculate Conception explanation came from Website. Just stunned me. Blew me away. I thought a person would personally tell me something. That was years ago maybe 3 or more. The years all seem close when we try to remember. Of course I believed some what. But I asked God where I would know I know. That settled for me.
Oh boy!! I just read my reply my spelling is real bad. I haven’t slept. I was up trying to go to bed. Now for sure. I want you to know in case you try to get me. I like conversing with you. I do not want you to think I am ignoring you. I always look forward to your exchanges. I am definitely sleeping. Bye. I will see ya later. It’s my pleasure.
No sweat.
Likewise.
Thx thx.
Mary was sinful and needed a savior just like all the rest of us!
Really?
Perhaps you would be so good as to identify the repetitions in my posts on this thread?
Yep. No way will God ever allow the creature to be worshipped in Heaven over the Creator.
Isaiah 42:8 - "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."
Isaiah 48:11 - "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another."
Revelation 4 describes worship in Heaven, and there is no description of anyone casting their crowns to anyone but God, or saying "Holy, Holy, Holy" to anyone but God.
Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia.
Jesus said nothing about worshipping the church at Philadelphia in that passage. Look at the context first before jumping to conclusions. Prior to saying 'bow down' he said: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie
What does that mean? He's talking about those who have a false spiritual profession...i.e., who 'say' they are Jews, but 'are not', but 'do lie'....What does verse 8 say about the Church at Philadelphia? That they were 'faithful', that they had KEPT HIS WORD, nor DENIED HIS NAME.
So what does God do with those who were not faithful, those who had a false spiritual profession??? V. 9 - He (GOD) MAKES THEM prostrate themselves before the truth. Verse 9 doesn't say 'they will come' - it says: I (GOD) WILL CAUSE; I (GOD) WILL MAKE; MAKE THEM (the Liars) KNOW.
This is the same thing God will do with all unbelievers in Philippians 2:10-11 "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
It is a FORCED ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND CONFESSION OF THEIR ERROR - that Christ is LORD. These are the enemies of Christ and the church being forced into submission before God. They were not worshipping the church at Philadelphia, they are being forced into submission before Christ the same as in Philippians. Do these enemies then go to Heaven because they were forced to bow???? No, that is suggested no where in Scripture. Do any of these passages suggest that the forced submission is before Mary? No. Does anyone cast their crowns before Mary in Heaven? No. Were any of them bowing to IMAGES of the Church at Philadelphia???? NO!
I would suggest to you based on these passages that the time will come when Catholics will be forced to kneel before Protestants by Christ Himself and forced to admit their error. It is not a passage that excuses or allows people to worship other people or images. That is forbidden:
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," - Deut. 5:8-9
The RCC and its members has made many excuses (many laughable) over the years excusing its idolatrous practices and thereby becoming exactly what the Lord was speaking of in Revelation 3:8. The day will come that HE HIMSELF will bring them about, and He will force them to acknowledge their error. The day will come they will have to bow before those whom they persecuted, and have to admit their error before being cast into eternal damnation.
THAT is the real picture in this passage that those trapped in darkness cannot see.
Her glory is the same as his because she had him. He shares his glory to others.
Utter blasphemy. Any Catholic makes the above statement is equating Mary with God. Making her EQUAL WITH GOD. That statement makes her DIVINE, and thus a goddess!! See Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 again. God will NOT share HIS GLORY with another!!
And every ex wife will proclaim that it was all her husband's fault. They still can't over the ex, even 30 years later, and spend the rest of their lives trying to run him down, never moving on. They also tend to attract similarly misreable people who are always pointing out what is wrong with others, yet never seem to realize that they are the problem.
That Mary is the woman through whom God became flesh is not in dispute, but God (Specifically God the Son) has existed for all eternity, and has no mother.
I’ve attended Mass for many years, and increasingly, I am having difficulty embracing the official position on Mary.
That's the rub, though - you people don't get to define or demand what others proclaim and believe. That's the great thing about being an American - we can dismiss the admonitions of bitter harpies as so much noise. Have a better day.
Thanks for the ping!
That's very good. Seriously. So, to disagree, I have to go after one of the premises.
I will go after both.
Here's my attempt, with comments.
The first comment is that we are talking about a miraculous motherhood which is part of the miracle and mystery of the Incarnation.
A feature of this miracle is that the eternal and antecedent God enters time. Not only does Mary "precede" Jesus (the Incarnate God), but so do Joseph, Ezra, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Adam, and a bunch of animals, birds and fishies.
Jesus' birthday may not have been 12/25/01, but he was born on some particular date "late in time" and was conceived before that -- which we Catholics will celebrate this Friday with much joy and with breaking the Lenten fast and Friday abstinence. (I'm going to have a BEER! Yeah!)
Yet Paul says of Him "He is before all things," and "..in Him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell." (Col 1: 17 & 19)
So we have a special case of motherhood. So maybe we need to look at what we think a mother is (as distinct from "mothah", which is another thing all together.-- I include this remark as an attempt at scholarly completeness.)
Well, "tokos" means at it's root "birther" (Nothing to do with Obama.) Similarly in the title Deipara the "para"has the same meaning and lingers on as the stem of "parturition."
Now,a "birther" is also a gestator (gestatrix?). That is,in viviparous animals usually the birther also supplies through sort of ad hoc organs protection and nutrition for the offspring. So thus far we have "mother" means the one who gestates and who gives birth.
Now WHAT does she gestate? She gestates, I think, a creature that vast proportion of whose stuff, matter, comes from her (or, strictly speaking, from God through her.) Also coming from her is PART (only part -- NOT all) of the still incompletely understood chemical information which determines physical characteristics.
That is in every vivaparous creature in which there are also distinct sexes, the mother gestates and conceives a child the vanishingly small portion of whose matter does NOT come through her and a significant portion of whose characteristics do not come through her, including the determinant of the sex of the child.
So Mary gestated something most of whose matter came through her and some of whose characteristics came from her. And she brought it to birth.
That's what mothers do; that's what Mary did. Mary sure looks like the mother of whatever it is that Jesus us.
Now, I am older than my wife. We have a child. Approximately half of the characteristics of that child come from me. SO my wife is the mother of something PART of which (or some aspects of which) preceded her.
By all this, I do not think that Mary or the concept of motherhood is changed by the titles Theotokos, Deipara, or "Mother of God."
What is changed is what it is possible for a creature to be. ONE creature is also the Creator.
As my daughter's brow and chin predated her mother, so our Lord's divinity preceded Mary. But my wife is no less my daughter's mother for that precedence, and Mary is no less God's mother -- For, as already quoted, "... in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell."
How's that?
Just being all objective and stuff (No, really!) I’d say the problem is the mystery of the incarnation. How great is the kenosis of which Paul writes in Philippians? I’d say great enough that God the Sn of God could take temporality up into himself.
However, none of us gets ANYTHING because of our merits alone. In that -- pretty much in that alone -- I can go with this guy. All merits, even the merits of the Saints, including of our Lady, are Christ's merits.
Now Christianity had sacrifices and altars as well, since the very beginning. The offering was of course not bulls or goats but the Eucharist, but it was still regarded as a true and proper sacrifice. This changed with Martin Luther. The only kind of offering he would admit was the sacrifice of praise and worship. So what happened in Protestantism was a total abandonment of the idea of the Eucharistic sacrifice in favor of personal prayer.
CHRISTIANITY does not have altars and sacrifices. Catholicism does. You ought not to conflate the two.
Christianity is not about sacrifices (present tense) but a done sacrifice. It's about one once for all time, finished, completed, never need to be repeated sacrifice.
What the Reformation got right was getting away from the continuation of sacrifice and focusing on the *It is FINISHED* part.
Communion is the remembrance of the once for all, one time, finished sacrifice. Anyone who teaches that sacrifice is still ongoing and that ongoing is necessary for salvation is wrong. It is not Scriptural.
The book of Hebrews addresses much of the teaching of the Catholic church. Sadly the Catholic church has decided to ignore it and teach contrary.
Hebrews 10
1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
8When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"
17then he adds,
"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
We are forgiven. There is no more need for sacrifice. The penalty for our sin has been completely paid by Christ's death on the cross. That's why He said *It is finished* and the curtain in the Temple was torn in two allowing access into the Holy of Holies.
No I don't - but God does.
There's 2 points to this:
1) All 'we people' are doing is telling others what God has already said in His Word. "We' are not proclaiming new doctrines or new scriptures. While 'we' don't get to demand what others proclaim and believe - HE DOES.
2) Its a case of the pot calling the kettle black again. There are many catechisms within the RCC that do to Protestants what RCC's don't want done to them. The RCC proclaimed all of us heretics ages ago and still have not rescinded any of the decrees of the Council of Trent.
So the real rub here is the RCC gets to make up its own doctrines as it goes along, disregard the Scriptures where necessary or add new ones where necessary (I would remind you the Apocrypha was never accepted canon of Scripture even within the Catholic Church until the Council of Trent in the 16th century),then label anyone who disagrees with her decrees as heretics, and act 'offended' should someone have the audacity to show them their many errors through the Word of God itself.
I wonder if God considered Noah, Abraham, the prophets, the Apostles as bitter harpies???? God's message isn't popular you know, so its not surprising those on the wrong side of His message would resent that message and consider those proclaiming it to be 'bitter harpies'. Call me names all you want to, I stand in some pretty good company, so I don't mind. :)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.