Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: johngrace
You are saying no way God would allow this to happen in heaven? [i.e., praying & bowing to Mary in Heaven]

Yep. No way will God ever allow the creature to be worshipped in Heaven over the Creator.

Isaiah 42:8 - "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."

Isaiah 48:11 - "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another."

Revelation 4 describes worship in Heaven, and there is no description of anyone casting their crowns to anyone but God, or saying "Holy, Holy, Holy" to anyone but God.

Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia.

Jesus said nothing about worshipping the church at Philadelphia in that passage. Look at the context first before jumping to conclusions. Prior to saying 'bow down' he said: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

What does that mean? He's talking about those who have a false spiritual profession...i.e., who 'say' they are Jews, but 'are not', but 'do lie'....What does verse 8 say about the Church at Philadelphia? That they were 'faithful', that they had KEPT HIS WORD, nor DENIED HIS NAME.

So what does God do with those who were not faithful, those who had a false spiritual profession??? V. 9 - He (GOD) MAKES THEM prostrate themselves before the truth. Verse 9 doesn't say 'they will come' - it says: I (GOD) WILL CAUSE; I (GOD) WILL MAKE; MAKE THEM (the Liars) KNOW.

This is the same thing God will do with all unbelievers in Philippians 2:10-11 "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

It is a FORCED ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND CONFESSION OF THEIR ERROR - that Christ is LORD. These are the enemies of Christ and the church being forced into submission before God. They were not worshipping the church at Philadelphia, they are being forced into submission before Christ the same as in Philippians. Do these enemies then go to Heaven because they were forced to bow???? No, that is suggested no where in Scripture. Do any of these passages suggest that the forced submission is before Mary? No. Does anyone cast their crowns before Mary in Heaven? No. Were any of them bowing to IMAGES of the Church at Philadelphia???? NO!

I would suggest to you based on these passages that the time will come when Catholics will be forced to kneel before Protestants by Christ Himself and forced to admit their error. It is not a passage that excuses or allows people to worship other people or images. That is forbidden:

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," - Deut. 5:8-9

The RCC and its members has made many excuses (many laughable) over the years excusing its idolatrous practices and thereby becoming exactly what the Lord was speaking of in Revelation 3:8. The day will come that HE HIMSELF will bring them about, and He will force them to acknowledge their error. The day will come they will have to bow before those whom they persecuted, and have to admit their error before being cast into eternal damnation.

THAT is the real picture in this passage that those trapped in darkness cannot see.

Her glory is the same as his because she had him. He shares his glory to others.

Utter blasphemy. Any Catholic makes the above statement is equating Mary with God. Making her EQUAL WITH GOD. That statement makes her DIVINE, and thus a goddess!! See Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 again. God will NOT share HIS GLORY with another!!

291 posted on 03/23/2011 5:59:41 AM PDT by conservativegramma
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 276 | View Replies ]


To: conservativegramma
"I would suggest to you based on these passages that the time will come when Catholics will be forced to kneel before Protestants by Christ Himself and forced to admit their error. It is not a passage that excuses or allows people to worship other people or images. That is forbidden"

Wow! Catholics venerate not worship but you do not want to believe that so you go to scripture verses that you think show your point of the argument. Yet you then show that Catholics will venerate Protestants. I am amazed. Yet you do not call that worship only in the Catholic sense.

What is a graven image? God had Moses put Angelic statues on The Ark of the Covenant. The temple in Jerusalem had images all over the place. I guess it must be in a certain context.

Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.

Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.

2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.

. Images and Statues

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw "no form" of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn't yet reveal himself visibly "in the form of any figure."

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon's temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God's wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews' most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

This is the Vision That Ezekiel has from God!

THE HEAVENLY TEMPLE HAS CARVINGS AND IMAGES. Meaning in Heaven:

EZEKIEL 41: 17 In the space above the outside of the entrance to the inner sanctuary and on the walls at regular intervals all around the inner and outer sanctuary 18 were carved cherubim and palm trees. Palm trees alternated with cherubim. Each cherub had two faces: 19 the face of a human being toward the palm tree on one side and the face of a lion toward the palm tree on the other. They were carved all around the whole temple. 20 From the floor to the area above the entrance, cherubim and palm trees were carved on the wall of the main hall.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html

320 posted on 03/23/2011 10:17:57 AM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 291 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson