Posted on 03/05/2011 11:00:45 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
A new book by one of the country’s most influential evangelical pastors, challenging traditional Christian views of heaven, hell and eternal damnation, has created an uproar among evangelical leaders
In a book to be published this month, the pastor, Rob Bell, known for his provocative views and appeal among the young, describes as “misguided and toxic” the dogma that “a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Help me out here. You’re saying God created men, knowing beforehand that they were/are going to hell? Not being sarcastic, I just want to know.
Straw dog argument. Let's not fall for that.
All humanity is condemned, but there will be a Judgment and those found to be righteous and justified have salvation. We don't place our faith in Christ when we fear Him, rather fear (, not hate,) is the opposite of love, and it is the natural reaction in our perspective when we are not in fellowship with perfect righteousness and justice.
When we sin, i.e. when we miss the mark of His Plan, our perspective of Him is not in fellowship with Him, but instead one of expectation of fiery indignation. If for no other reason we realize the fallen angels were judged and condemned with less provision than what He has given in His perfect Sacrifice for us, so it's perfectly reasonable to anticipate fiery indignation for our sin.
The difference in that perspective and the Christian walk is that Christ has already paid the price for ALL sin.
No human being is going to be sent to eternal torment for their personal sins. Christ already settled that issue on the Cross. If He hadn't there would be no certainty or hope of eternal salvation.
Instead, He provides for our sanctification and in order to provide that, we must be in fellowship with Him. So when we sin, we re-enter into that fellowship by turning back to Him, confessing our sin to Him, (which BTW He already knew about from eternity past) and He is sure and just to forgive us that sin.
Judgment is different than forgiveness. The Cross was all about judgment. That is why we are able to be forgiven on a moment's notice today by a just and righteous God who always does the right thing in a right way.
Judgment is going to come to determine the eternal destiny of those whom He has created. Those predestined as the elect will escape the Great White Throne Judgment, but will face the bema seat for rewards.
I've considered the philosophy of hell as a parable, but its usage in Scripture is definitely locative and is spiritually perceived and described from perceptions using physical descriptions.
It really doesn't matter if one doesn't believe it exists, because when it is perceived, the people perceiving it will be unable to avoid it and it has been perceived and described as an eternal lake of fire.
Yes, Jesus the living Word of God, not just the archangel Michael as Adventists believe Him to be
The link doesn’t work.
The problem is that sin is not a state of being, but an act... a transgression against others or against G-d.
Therefore, until the person actually commits such a transgression, they have not sinned. Of course, that really only applies to infants, but the point still remains.
God created man (Adam,..and the second Adam, Christ) and imputes life to every human soul. Nobody can remove that life from the soul except God Himself.
The argument of Him predestining those who reject Him to Hell, is known as double predestination, and IMHO advocated by Beza after Calvin passed away and IMHO is not Scriptural.
Scripture is clear, though, that the decision to move unbelievers out from His presence isn’t merely limited to His immediate locality, but a very locative place we call Hell, and it isn’t simply to relocate them, but punishment is associated with the judgment and a qualifying description of that location and judgment.
Bad analogy. Your example only works if the woman was already on death row about to be executed for a series of gruesome crimes, a person who deserved the death penalty 100 times over. And God gives that person a chance at Heaven or allows them to continue on their way to go to the hell they deserve. God has no obligation to save anyone from the Hell they deserve and ask for. That he saves some as a result of their own choice to be with him is pure grace and perfect love. Perfect because God himself had to die to accomplish it.
I believe indifference is the opostive of love.
Actually, Bell doesn’t say in his book that there is no hell, nor is he a universalist. Your parenthetical addition in the headline is wrong. This is about a bunch of neo-Calvinists who got their panties in a knot before they even read the book.
Bell does have a cessationist view of hell, which is an orthodox view within evangelicalism. However, the neo-Calvinists (Justin Taylor, John Piper, and others) are bent on deliberately misquoting Bell to try to destroy him.
Bell’s teaching style is to ask hard questions rather than just hand out easy answers. Then the neo-Calvinists take the difficult questions he asks and decide that means he must believe x, y and z. Frankly, if their reading comprehension is that low, how can anyone trust their reading of scripture or even of John Calvin.
Doesn’t matter.
Humans from birth have a genetically transmitted old sin nature.
We do not begin life with a regenerated human spirit. We do begin life upon birth with a soul imputed with life from God, and a body imputed with biological life.
A vocabulary word used by Greek archers on the practice range, “Sin” is simply “missing the mark”. The mark in context is God’s Plan.
Humans have volition and in our thinking, whenever we think independent of Him, we step out of line,...i.e. we have missed the mark, we have sinned.
We too often associate sin with immorality or transgression of the law. While such behavior is indeed sinful, sin is much simpler to understand when in fellowship with Him as ANYTHING other than walking by His Plan.
God’s Plan was for Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge of knowledge of good and evil. Once eaten the human species fell out of fellowship with God. Our human spirit was no longer with God.
While Christ has redeemed us from the slave market of sin, we have not been forgiven until we exhibit faith in Him. His grace is given to those with faith for their continuing sanctification, in preparation for rewards we will use for eternity future. Until we are able to comprehend the Gospel, should we suffer the first death, He is free from the payment at the Cross to forgive us for those things we did not understand, because He has paid the price for ALL sin.
This is why children who die before the age of accountability and idiots or the mentally deficient will have eternal life and not automatically condemned to Hell. It’s all His Work.
The unbeliever though has evidence of His Plan in all things about him, so even if not being exposed to the Gospel, he is without excuse if both is name is blotted out of the Book of Life and his works lack Divine Righteousness when they are judged. If an unbeliever were perfect and without sin, he would find nothing wrong with Christ and those who follow and walk with Him.
Perhaps in a Binary world where either love or fear exist but not both, apathy would qualify.
Maybe a thinking such as:
Love = 1
Fear = -1
Apathy = 0
Within the domain of uncontrollable feelings, the opposite of love is fear, not apathy.
In the Greek suffix, Fear is PHOBIA and Love is PHILIA. Both are uncontrollable feelings for or against an object.
Granted this interpretation is in regards to a brotherly love, vice AGAPE or sacrificial love.
It’s interesting to note that the 3 time Christ queried Peter if he loved Him, the first two times Jesus Christ asked if Peter AGAPE’d Christ, and Peter responded he PHILEO’d Christ and the third time, Christ asked if he PHILEO’d Christ.
“hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek.
I would respectfully disagree. One can love someone they fear. We are to love God and fear him. One cannot love and be indifferent towards someone.
“Read the Bible. Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about Heaven.”
You beat me to it. Some people just choose to ignore what makes them uncomfortable, even if it’s staring at them in the face.
I agree that the analogy is limited. I think it also comes from an understanding of human nature though. And God has that understanding. To take that part of the analogy further, her cheating, since he created her, could lead to His uncreating her, kinda like He did with the great flood. It is the punishment that is beyond human comprehension, and “unending” that I am challenged to pull from the actual words of the bible.
That analogy was not mine, but this one is: If I say I am going to paint a fence blue for all eternity do I mean I am going to spend all eternity painting it, or that I am going to paint it once and it will STAY BLUE.
It is interesting that the bible is very clear that those who accept Christ will go on to eternal life, while those that don’t, won’t. And what is the opposite of life?
>>That act in the garden of wanting to be like God was enough for Him to turn his back on us. However, God so loves us and wants us to be with him for eternity that he sacrificed Himself through his Son, Jesus Christ. All we have to do is accept His sacrifice and live lives worthy of His sacrifice to be with him forever.<<
I agree with all of that except for the word “and” in your last sentence. I also praise Jesus that although I give Him cause to turn His back on my daily, He is faithful and just and provided the ultimate sacrifice. And that is grace. He has “saved” me in spite of who I am. Actually, Paul talks about it quite a bit in Romans.
My life is NOT worthy of His sacrifice. That is why it is called Grace.
I can’t imagine a Holy (separated?) God and a future rest with Him that would allow the rebellious ,and the unrighteous ,and the unbeliever to continue in that Holy place.The horned devil with beard and tail-and pitchfork-and Dantes’ vision of eternal damnation seem more a prelude to the movie night with such perverted joys as Saw-and Friday the 13th and their ilk. I rather prefer the idea those mentioned above as
unfit for the Holy place being like fat burned up on a consuming fire—here one moment then gone in righteous judgement?
Jesus permeates the OT. The OT is about Him Jesus sez so.
Like us, folks in the OT were saved by faith in Him.
Eh, that’s your belief... and it’s wrong.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.