Classical Protestant Resurgence: how the PCA got its mojo back

The Aquila Report ^ | 24 May 2010 | Chris Hutchinson

[Gamecock]

An AP article was sent to my computer which many might find interesting. Sometimes my computer dates things incorrectly, but never before has an article appeared this early. You will of course note that the writer shows a typical secular reporter’s ignorance about the Reformed faith, but otherwise it seems to be fairly written, though poorly edited in parts. Also, it would have been strengthened by more direct quotes from the actual participants, but I guess we should be glad for any press.

Here is the AP story: July 1, 2020

Classical Protestant Resurgence: how the PCA got its mojo back Part 4 of the Series, “Religion in Post-Obama America” Associated Press, Atlanta

Ten years ago, many thought that the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) was at a crisis point. Years of stagnant growth and divisiveness had taken their toll. In an effort to stem the tide, many prominent men within the PCA urged it to change her tack or risk irrelevancy. An effort was made to broaden the PCA’s appeal by severing its ties with doctrinally similarly aligned, but smaller denominations in favor of cooperation with larger and growing movements.

However, a surprising thing happened. Unconvinced that such a change in tactics was called for, the denomination instead chose to reemphasize her distinctives -- doctrines such predestination of an “elect,” the baptizing of infants, and the necessity of churches being connected in regional bodies called presbyteries. Many feared that such a doctrinal approach would weaken the PCA and make it less appealing to the newer generations of Christians which appeared to be flocking to newer movements such as the so called “emergent” churches of the day and the Acts 29 Network (now on its third iteration as the Acts 31 network).

Perhaps a greater challenge to the PCA came from allies within the Southern Baptist Convention. A renewed interest in Calvinism among Baptists of various kinds – ironically fueled in part by the success of the PCA – stemmed some of the PCA’s momentum as many younger Calvinists chose to practice their faith in a Baptist context. The PCA was no longer the newest and coolest Calvinist kid on the block. It had lost its mojo.

It was understandable then that some of the PCA leaders, wishing to keep up a perceived momentum from its earlier decades of rapid growth (due in large part to whole churches transferring in from other denominations), pushed for the PCA to accommodate herself to changing demographic trends.

What could not have been foreseen was the growing cynicism of the newer generations towards the marketing which had been directed towards them by these newer movements. Many recognized that the “emerging” churches had essentially employed the same strategy of the much maligned Willow Creek “church growth” strategies popularized in the suburbs of the 1980s and 90s. Only this time, instead of syncretizing Christianity with the American suburban sub-culture, the emergents syncretized the Christian faith with the gentrification sub-culture of American cities. (See Part 2 of this Series: “How religion played a role in the re-segregating of the American urban landscape.”) As sociologists have since shown, both rounds of syncretism served to accommodate evangelical Christianity to the predominant relativism of American culture, to the extent that doctrinal distinctives were often played down in hopes of churches appearing more open minded and relevant to the issues of the day.

At the same time, many of these disillusioned younger Christians found themselves attracted to the bold Calvinism found among a variety of Baptist preachers of the time, men such as John Piper of Minneapolis, Mark Dever of Washington, D.C., and Marc Driscoll of Seattle. These ministers supported doctrines such as predestination and held to a strong view of the church, and yet rejected Presbyterian principles such as standing presbyteries and baptizing infants in favor of local church autonomy and baptizing only those who could recount some sort of credible conversion experience. And while these popular Baptist ministers cooperated with other denominations, they made no bones about their distinctive Baptist convictions. Such humble confidence in the midst of the emergent, relativist landscape proved attractive and successful.

Against this backdrop, the PCA held their annual General Assembly in late June of 2010. Leaders from across the denomination were urging a new direction and a renewed emphasis on numerical growth in order to “be part of what God is doing in the world.” After days of debate, the denominational rank and file rejected such an approach in favor of a return to their roots as a Calvinist denomination, including those convictions which distinguished them from both the emergent churches and their Calvinist Baptist allies.

At the same time, there was a renewed emphasis across the PCA on doing the simple things well – preaching from the Bible, emphasizing the doctrine of “justification by faith alone” as central to the Christian life, praying in small groups, and taking church discipline seriously (that members must uphold their vows to follow Christ or face correction from church leaders). An emphasis was placed on local ministry rather than embracing a one-size-fits-all national strategy.

But this counter-intuitive approach to church growth paid off. Younger Christians of all backgrounds were attracted to the authentic, simple approach to faith which did not overly concern itself with marketing or social trends. At the same time, they were drawn to the certainty and stability which the PCA presented, and increasingly convinced of the Biblical rationale for infant baptism and standing presbyteries, once the PCA began to aggressively promote its views. Of course, a fine line had to be walked, both not to alienate other Christian denominations and to ensure that its own members did not confuse secondary matters with more essential matters such as the divinity of Jesus. But somehow, they pulled it off, and have seen steady numerical growth 7 of the past 10 years.

With the precipitous decline of the historically larger PC(USA), the PCA now appears on the cusp of becoming the largest Presbyterian body in the United States, with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church not far behind.

[Cronos]

The problem with Calvinism is it's strict adherence to a non-biblical double-predestination. The Calvinists seem to hold that God creates Evil:

"The devil and wicked men are so held in on every side with the hand of God, that they cannot conceive, or contrive, or execute any mischief, any farther than God himself doth not permit only, but command. Nor are they only held in fetters, but compelled also, as with a bridle, to perform obedience to those commands." (Calv. Inst., b. 1, c. 17, s. 11.)

Followers of Calvin have made God into a monster who DECIDES on creating evil -- they do this when they state that God has decided it is “better to bring good out of evil, than not to permit any evil to exist.

Yet the followers of Calvin neglect to ask themselves How does God decide anyway since He knows the outcome?Is He NOT sure in the first place and needs to make a decision because He does not understand Himself ,thus making Him not ALL knowing?


Calvinism makes God into a monster who DECIDES on creating evil.

[Cronos]

		2009 membership	2010 membership		Lost	Gained
PCUSA	2,934,952	2,844,952	90,000
PCA	2,934,952	340,000		5,500
		Disappearing Presbyerians	84,500

The PCA is 300,000 in membership

2011 Church Membership: Southern Baptists Decline; Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons Increase

And PCA statistics provide a blurry snapshot says that Total membership in 2009 – 346,408, an increase of 5,556.

5,500 more....

in contrast the PCUSA has 2,000,000 members --> 7 times larger as you point out.

If the PCA adds in 5,500 members each year, they will reach 1 million members in 118 years

You can't go by the same growth percentage as growth tapers as size increases. But even taking that fallacious number, it will be 40 years. That's not counting the number of splits it will have before then.

The article is a work of fiction, because the PCA is expanding at the rate of 5,500 more a year, but losing 84,500 Presbyterians who leave the PCUSA

Making a fancy statement like There is much more happening in the PCA than just the steady growth. Several things that will cause an exponential growth over the next 20 years. is just fancy words and belies:
i. The facts that the PCA grows slower and with lesser numbers than even the Jehovah's Witnesses

ii. the PCA will inevitably have a split soon -- it's the way of all the Presbyterian groups -- see the PCUSA, PCUS, OPC, etc. --> the OPC which was formed in 1932 has had 2 splits since then. The PCA is a child of the 70s. It will split soon -- with all the furore over the Federal Vision and Female deacons.

[Cronos]

Would we Baptists who are non-Calvinists be included in your "etc"? :~)

Of course.

Let me back up a bit -- the lowest common denominator I see is that we all Calvinists and non-Calvinists (well most of us, with some odd posters) acknowledge Jesus Christ as Our Lord, God and Savior, the One God with the Father and the Holy Spirit. That is the lowest common denominator -- beyond that I could not consider someone Christian.

I do disagree a lot with Baptists on many points, but those are theological issues and don't stand in the way of knowing they worship our loving God.

The Calvinist philosophy of double-predestination, of a God that orders evil, of a God that willfully choses some to go to hell does not strike me as the Christian concept of God.

Hilaire Belloc hits the “nail on the head” exposing the agenda of darkened mind of calvin when he wrote the following....

“What Calvin did was this. He took what is one of the oldest and most perilous directives of mankind, the sense of Fate. He isolated it, and he made it supreme, by fitting it, with the kneading of a powerful mind, into the scheme which Christian men still traditionally associated with the holiness and authority of their ancestral religion.

God had become Man, and God had become Man to redeem mankind. That was no part of the old idea of Inevitable Fate. On the contrary, it was a relief from that pagan nightmare. We of the Faith say that the Incarnation was intended to release us from such a pagan nightmare. Well, Calvin accepted the Incarnation, but he forced it to fit in with the old pagan horror of compulsion: “Ananke.”

He reintroduced the Inexorable.

Yes, God had become Man and had died to save mankind; but only mankind in such numbers and persons as He had chosen to act for. The idea of the Inexorable remained. The merits of Christ were imputed, and no more. God was Causation, and Causation is one immutable whole. A man was damned or saved; and it was not of his doing. The recognition of evil as equal with good, which rapidly becomes the worship of evil (the great Manichean heresy, which has roots as old as mankind; the permanent motive of Fear) was put forward by Calvin in a strange new form. He did not indeed oppose, as had the Manichean, two equal principles of Good and of Evil. He put forward only one principle, God. But to that One Principle he ascribed all our suffering, and, for most of us, necessary and eternal suffering.

Again, the Catholic Church had called the soul of man immortal. Calvin accepted that doctrine; but under his hands it becomes an immortality of doom, and for the few who shall have doom to beatitude, doom it yet is, as doom is is to the myriads for whom it shall mean despair.

.... He(Calvin) it was who rendered humility futile and the appetite for wealth a virtue.

He it was who began the war against Joy.

;-Hilaire Belloc (How the Reformation Happened_

[Cronos]

Sorry, there was a problem in the formatting, the table should be:

	2009 membership	2010 membership	Lost	Gained
PCUSA	2,934,952	2,844,952	90,000
PCA	2,934,952	340,000		5,500
		Disappearing Presbyerians	84,500

The PCA is 300,000 in membership

2011 Church Membership: Southern Baptists Decline; Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons Increase

And PCA statistics provide a blurry snapshot says that Total membership in 2009 – 346,408, an increase of 5,556.

5,500 more....

in contrast the PCUSA has 2,000,000 members --> 7 times larger as you point out.

If the PCA adds in 5,500 members each year, they will reach 1 million members in 118 years

You can't go by the same growth percentage as growth tapers as size increases. But even taking that fallacious number, it will be 40 years. That's not counting the number of splits it will have before then.

[dangus]

>> Interesting — so then the stories by ex-freemasons that the Presbyterians and other groups are really just fronts for freemasonry is not rumour? <<

Whoa. That’s a bit of a leap... Where did that come from?

The closest I’ve come to seeing that was that the Knights Templar withdrew to Switzerland, where I’m sure their resentment towards Rome might have helped Zwingli catch on. (You’ll note that the Swiss flag is similar to that of the Knights Templar.)

But the freemasons are works-oriented, hard to reconcile with Calvinism. Yet I will say that I’ve never understood why the Calvinists are obsessed with Catholicism, ignoring the fairly high percentage of Baptists and Presbyterians who entangle themselves with freemasonry, and masonic-themed fraternities and sororities. (Masonic lodges are on the decline, but college fraternities and sororities have exploded, and they tend to be very masonic in nature.)

It’s almost as if the fraternities and sororities exemplify every Calvinist’s worst fevered imaginations about Catholicism... plus add in drunkenness, systematic sexual desensitization, drug abuse, mixing Greek paganism with Christian symbolism. Yet I don’t hear preachers warn against fraternities; I’ve never seen Calvinists criticize them on FR. (I HAVE posted several threads about masonry or fraternities.)

I’m not trying to infer any basis for Cronos’ question. To the contrary, Southern Baptist seminaries, AFAIK, do NOT have masonic fraternities or sororities in them. I’m just wondering why Calvinists and Baptists aren’t bothered that the Bible Belt for so long has been dominated by business leaders and politicians from the masonic-fraternal system?

[Cronos]

Nah, these are all silly rumours like the crazy stuff about visions of hell by an 8 year old etc.

While I disagree strongly with the PCA's Calvinist double-predestination, I like their institutional stand against baby-killing. The problem is that now they are 350,000 - 400,000. This is still quite a bit off from the PCUSA 1,6 million and about 0.73% of the number of American Catholics.

As they grew, whether fast or slow, they will have the same problems of larger groups.

Despite our differences we can still agree on the fundamentals like the Trinity, Jesus as wholly man and wholly God etc.

As they focus more on saving Christians from the wreckage that is the PCUSA, they serve the Lord.

But I don't understand the differences between the:

• PCA
• OPC
• EPC
• WEPC
• BPC
• CPC
• CRPC
• ERPC
• FPCNA
• PCC
• PRCNA
• RPCGA
• RPCUS
• RPCHP
• UPCNA
• UCPC
• WPCUS

[Religion Moderator]

My warning had nothing to do with Bible quotes or questions. I said:

Do not carry the same argument from thread to thread. And don’t badger another Freeper, personally.

Following metmom from thread to thread raising the same claim or implication spreads trouble. Keep the argument on the original thread.

However, if the issue is raised anew by someone who was not a party to the original thread then it would not be considered trouble-making to pursue the argument on the new thread.

[Cronos]

Bluntly, I didn't follow metmom -- her post in 157 was a comment to HossB86 on me, since hoss had initially replied to my post 144, ccing her.

But I don't mind -- if it gives her some joy to comment, that's a good thing, joy is something to be spread around. After all, it's just 54 days to the most joyous time of the year - Easter!

[HarleyD]

I'm glad people are reading the Psalms. I don't mind anyone commenting on them as long as it's positive. I purposely make them a Reformed Caucus simply so we don't argue over what God is saying. I thought about making them ecumenical but I think that wouldn't be good enough.

I keep trying to be a bit more diligent in posting them but it seems like every time I start some new crisis erupts. I haven't had much of a chance to be out here. Well, as the Lord wills as us Calvinists would say. :O)

[Cronos]

Quite frankly, I would prefer to see them in Ecumenical threads. In an ecumenical thread one can pose differing views, but no antagonism is allowed and the emphasis is more on sharing what each person believes rather than attacking what the other believes.

We all have different beliefs, but only in sharing them can we actually have a town-hall debate rather than a bar-room brawl (a brawl is fun every now and then though, but it's hardly conservative Christian!)

[Cronos]

Hinckley -- the PCA will try anything and everything to keep the simpletons coming in so the PCA can spread its non-Christian message. On the contrary, the PCA just aims to spread hatred for all Christianity.

OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals	from the OPC doctrinal website {the OPC} sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error (of the Pentecostals). In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Lutherans	"The liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture" by an OPC poster:
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Methodists:	From the opc doctrinal website: . Are Arminian (Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptist etc) preachers heretics? yes . Is Arminianism (Methodism, Pentecostalism, Baptists) a damnable heresy? Yes. . the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ "we see the inherent Satanism of Free-Will Arminianism" (accusing Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. who disagree with Calvin of preaching a gospel of Satan
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Methodists	"John Wesley preached Universal Infant Damnation for unbaptized infants -- which is unsurprising, because Wesley preached the Gospel of Satan" by a PCA poster
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Judaism	Acording to the OPC "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. "
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Catholics together as targets of the OPC/PCA message of hate	The PCA view: "This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics." And I think this is one reason why it is easy for certain evangelicals, often from the "enthusiast" wing, find it easy to become Roman Catholic.
OPC/PCA preaching hatred and evil against Christians martyred by Moslems in the Middle East	This man followed the wrong teachings of Rome and we know what happens to such people. Heaven is for the elect.
preaching hatred against the Eastern Orthodox	Insinuating that the E. Orthodox are not helping others in Japan
preaching hatred against Adventists	The Adventists are a cult that is as dangerous as the Jehovahs Witnesses or the Mormons
revealing their true beliefs that Christianity means only Calvinism and only their particular brand of Calvinism	OPC poster: "That's Christianity. That's Calvinism" OPC " The problem with non-denominational churches is that there's nothing to stop the congregation from deciding to become Mormon or Unitarian, etc. There is something to be said for a diagonal form of church structuring, like the Presbyterians -- organized by a representative group of congregants. This actually strengthens the Christian imperative rather than dilutes it as so many non-denominational churches tend to do." "Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel." Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979. "Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression." B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956 "We believe with the great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that Calvinism is just another name for Christianity." John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism, 1991.

[Gamecock]

ROMAN CATHOLIC DEMONSTRATING HE HAS NO IDEA REGARDING THE DISTINCTION DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OPC AND PCA.

[Cronos]

The OPC (OrthodoPresbyterian C) and PCA (Presbyterian C in America) attack on American Christians

OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals	from the OPC doctrinal website {the OPC} sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error (of the Pentecostals). In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Lutherans	"The liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture" by an OPC poster:
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Methodists:	From the opc doctrinal website: . Are Arminian (Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptist etc) preachers heretics? yes . Is Arminianism (Methodism, Pentecostalism, Baptists) a damnable heresy? Yes. . the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ "we see the inherent Satanism of Free-Will Arminianism" (accusing Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. who disagree with Calvin of preaching a gospel of Satan
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Methodists	"John Wesley preached Universal Infant Damnation for unbaptized infants -- which is unsurprising, because Wesley preached the Gospel of Satan" by a PCA poster
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Judaism	Acording to the OPC "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. "
OPC/PCA preaching hatred against Pentecostals and Catholics together as targets of the OPC/PCA message of hate	The PCA view: "This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics." And I think this is one reason why it is easy for certain evangelicals, often from the "enthusiast" wing, find it easy to become Roman Catholic.
OPC/PCA preaching hatred and evil against Christians martyred by Moslems in the Middle East	This man followed the wrong teachings of Rome and we know what happens to such people. Heaven is for the elect.
preaching hatred against the Eastern Orthodox	Insinuating that the E. Orthodox are not helping others in Japan
preaching hatred against Adventists	The Adventists are a cult that is as dangerous as the Jehovahs Witnesses or the Mormons
revealing their true beliefs that Christianity means only Calvinism and only their particular brand of Calvinism	OPC poster: "That's Christianity. That's Calvinism" OPC " The problem with non-denominational churches is that there's nothing to stop the congregation from deciding to become Mormon or Unitarian, etc. There is something to be said for a diagonal form of church structuring, like the Presbyterians -- organized by a representative group of congregants. This actually strengthens the Christian imperative rather than dilutes it as so many non-denominational churches tend to do." "Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel." Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979. "Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression." B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956 "We believe with the great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that Calvinism is just another name for Christianity." John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism, 1991.

Who are these hatred mongers of the OPC/PCA? What do they preach?

They preach:

• That many of the unborn children (victims of baby-killers etc) will still go to hell, condemned by the OPC/PCA version of God
• that they are alone among the upper caste of people who will be saved irrespective of their lives
• that those who are not PCA/OPC are not elect and are damnable heretics (this includes all Pentecostals, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Orientals, Mennonites, etc.)
• A man was damned or saved; and it was not of his doing. The recognition of evil as equal with good, which rapidly becomes the worship of evil (the great Manichean heresy, which has roots as old as mankind; the permanent motive of Fear). They ascribe to God all our suffering, and, for most of us, necessary and eternal suffering.
• They preach a syncretic mixed form of Hinduism and Christianity. They say that The Father predestinated the plan and the Son and Spirit agreed to the plan . God the Father is "conferencing" with the Son and the Spirit. As three seperate Gods. This is the OPC/PCA disclosure of their polytheism
• They add to this by saying "There is no warrant in the scriptures for prayers to anyone other than God the Father. He is God and He is called Lord and Jesus, Paul and John address prayers solely to Him."
• They preach exlusively from the writings of Paul and of Calvin, equating them and now there seems to be an elevation of Gresham Machen especially in the OPC by insinuations that St. Paul was senile

How numerous is this group spreading hatred?

The OPC and PCA combine consisting of about 400,000 people, yet the OPC was formed in the 1930s and has had two splits since then. It is heading for it's third split.

This is what an ex-Ruling Elder of the OPC says about this group:

From the Trinity Foundation

• the Report continues the conspiracy of silence that has prevailed in the OPC for three decades. It leaves the erroneous impression that the serious doctrinal problems are outside the denomination, not within it. The Report gives false comfort to those who think the OPC is still a bastion of Biblical orthodoxy. On the contrary, the Report, and the 2006 General Assembly’s commendation of it, both maintain the OPC as a safe haven for those who teach error
• Men within the OPC, including at least one member of the Committee itself, teach heresy regarding the Gospel and many other fundamentals of the faith.
• The OPC long ago ceased to proclaim the one true Gospel to the exclusion of all false gospels
• The Orthodox Presbyterian Church has abandoned the marks of a true church of Jesus Christ
• The Orthodox Presbyterian Church was founded in 1936 by about 135 people who were offended by the lack of discipline in and doctrinal errors of the Presbyterian Church in the USA. .
  But early in its history the OPC fell under the influence of an agnostic view of propositional revelation emanating from Westminster Seminary -- a view that said that there is no identity of content between the \"Christian system\" of theology, meaning Reformed confessions of faith, and the \"divine system\" of theology, known only to God.
  
  This agnosticism has now brought the OPC to the point of falling. Like its predecessor, the PCUSA, the OPC has failed to discipline teachers who teach contrary to Scriptures and the Confession of Faith, and it has endorsed un-Biblical teaching about Scripture and the Gospel.

Are they spreading their message of hate?

Despite the crowing that one may hear or read, the actual numbers show a large number leaving the Presbyterians as a whole

	2009 membership	2010 membership	Lost	Gained
PCUSA	2,934,952	2,844,952	90,000
PCA	335,000	340,000		5,500
OPC	21,123	21,530		407
		Disappearing Presbyterians	84,100

The PCA is 300,000 in membership

2011 Church Membership: Southern Baptists Decline; Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons Increase

And PCA statistics provide a blurry snapshot says that Total membership in 2009 – 346,408, an increase of 5,556 while in contrast the PCUSA has 2,000,000 members --> and dropping

If the PCA adds in 5,500 members each year, they will reach 1 million members in 118 years

Yet one can't go by the same growth percentage as growth tapers as size increases. But even taking that fallacious number, it will be 40 years. That's not counting the number of splits it will have before then.

The truth is that they shout a lot more on internet forums, giving one a wrong idea of their actual size. Why should one oppose these attackers of Christianity and America?

Because they attack the very foundations of our country by having made God into a monster who DECIDES on creating evil -- they do this when they state that God has decided it is “better to bring good out of evil, than not to permit any evil to exist.

They neglect to ask themselves How does God decide anyway since He knows the outcome?Is He NOT sure in the first place and needs to make a decision because He does not understand Himself ,thus making Him not ALL knowing?

If the OPC robot-maker god created evil than evil is part of the essence of the OPC/PCA idea of God. This is not the Christian God

The OPC/PCA believe that Christ has evil in Him as part of His essence since the second person of the Trinity is God incarnate. This is a horrendous belief that leads only to more people leaving Christ.

The OPC and the PCA (combined are 350,000) posters have one aim only -- attacking anyone who is not a member of their little groups

The OPC/PCA seems to be no more than a larger version of the Westboro Baptists -- and like them they do not serve Christ.

The bible refers to the OrthodoPresbyterian and Presbyterian C in America (OPC/PCA) when we read:

Proverbs 6:12-14

A worthless person, a wicked man (OPC/PCA),
Walks with a perverse mouth;
He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.

[Cronos]

Keep shouting if you wish — what differentiates you PCA types from the OPC. I’ll listen. Tell us.

[Cronos]

The fact is that the PCA has the following beliefs (as shown on it's website www.pcahistory.org)

1. A disbelief in the literal meaning of Genesis (there's a long-winded statement there, quite typical)
2. A belief that many if not most miscarried and abortion victims (babies killed) go to hell,
3. A belief that Methodists and Pentecostals are damnable heretics
4. A belief that only Calvinism is pure Christianity
5. A belief that sharing a meal with Jews as on Seder etc. is not only wrong but a horrendous sin (latent anti-semitism)
6. A belief that Pentecostals are on the verge of if not already not Christians

Among many other strange beliefs.

As the PCA has grown, there are more cases of abuse, of money extorted etc. This sub-group is heading for having homosexual practising pastors living in "partnerships".

The PCA is no more than an extension of the PCUSA -- not completely there, but luring folks in until it reveals itself as the Pinko C in America

[Cronos]

Let me repeat -- what differentiates you PCA types from the OPC?

1. Do you PCA types believe that Charismatic gifts (healing, talking in tongues) is still possible today?
2. Do you PCA types have a liturgy?
3. does the PCA have drama in its services?
4. Does the PCA have liturgical dance in its services?
5. Does the PCA like the OPC deal with dissent in a back-room manner?
6. Do you allow singing with guitars, choirs etc. or just psalms?
7. Do you hold to a literal 6 day creationism view?

What about the PCA view of Jews, Methodists, Pentecostals? Do you deny that the PCA just like the OPC considers these to be damnable heretics?

[catfish1957]

I care a lot that the Catholic Church is growing with numbers that surpass all other churches combined.

I am Presbyterian, my wife is Catholic, and we have attended Catholic mass at her insistence for 25 years now.

However, I continue to slow boil at the left wing leanings (economic, environmental) of this church. Even stranger is the outright lack of knowledge of scripture of Catholics. Church for Catholics is nothing more than dogmatic repetition. I also about choked about 15 years ago when our minister stated that the reformation was nothing more than a scandal.

[Cronos]

Which Presbyterian group, if I may ask please?

[Cronos]

Do note this link --> Scripture in the mass

and also Vatican Ambassador: Social Justice is about relationships, not socialism

[Cronos]

The PCA is no more than an extension of the PCUSA

It lures folks in and will soon reveals itself as

the Pinko C in America