The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Cronos]

And regarding the Westminister Confession of Faith, in the next chapter, XVIII, he points out " this assurance may, in due time, be revived" viz may be revived not a complete assurance.

In chapter IX he wrote

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7] IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only

andChapter XV: Of Repentence unto Life

I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,[1] the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the Gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.[2]

II. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God,[3] purposing and endeavouring to walk with Him in all the ways of His commandments.[4]

III. Although repentance is not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,[5] which is the act of God's free grace in Christ,[6] yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.[7]

IV. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation;[8] so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.[9]

V. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.[10]

VI. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof;[11] upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy;[12] so he that scandelizeth his brother, or the Church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended;[13] who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him

In fact, in Chapter XVI : Of Good Works he writes

. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith:[3] and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,[4] strengthen their assurance,[5] edify their brethren,[6] adorn the profession of the Gospel,[7] stop the mouths of the adversaries,[8] and glorify God,[9] whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,[10] that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.<[

"strenghten their assurance"? I don't read double predestination in this, I'm sorry.

[MarkBsnr]

The Jesuits were charged with dealing with the Reformers. We see which order fulfilled their duty.

Seems to me those Jesuits dealt with them pretty harshly when they educated Hitler and he put many of those Reformer preachers to death.

Are you accusing the Jesuits of educating Hitler so that he would kill Reformed preachers? Impressive job of foreknowledge, right?

[Cronos]

Valid enough that “on Grace and Free will” was written before the “Perseverance of the Saints”, though I of course, disagree with you that this is a progression in Augustine’s thinking. Will reply specifically to the P of the S later this evening. Thank you

[HarleyD]

I said that you do not have infallible Scripture in your hands. The Early Church did.

They apparently had it as late as the 4th century. Did the Church lose the scriptures?

Interesting statement. Which Councils are you referring to?

Well, as much as I'm not impressed with the Council of Trent, we really don't have to go back too far to see that the Catholic Church viewed the scriptures as the authentic works.

DECREE CONCERNING THE EDITION, AND THE USE, OF THE SACRED BOOKS

Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,--considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,--ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.

Council of Trent Fourth Session

[MarkBsnr]

Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,--considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,--ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.

Impressive. I didn't realize that you used the Church-authorized Latin Bible. I thought that you used the KJV.

[spirited irish]

kosta: Which is another way of saying it is up to you to be saved or lost, i..e man decides his own slavation/ perdition, not God. Dostoyevsky’s view basically makes God a provider and man the ultimate decider.

This also flies in the face of Matthew 20:16 which reads “for many be called, but few chosen.” [KJV, Douay-Rheims, Russian (1876) Synodal Edition]*

Spirited: Moral imbecility results when man’s reason is uninformed by Universal Moral Law. Your imbecilic claims are merely fiery darts from the abyss, for they are not the result of morally imformed reason used in pursuit of truth but will-to-power speaking through warped reason (liberated from Moral Law) in pursuit of personal power.

In pursuit of personal power you twist, distort, and torture the permanent things until, devoid of all truth and meaning, they become just what you require them to be. For this reason, your responses cannot be taken seriously, for they come from the void.

[HarleyD]

Double predestination is where God purposely chooses who is damned. This is not splitting hairs as it is quite different from predestination which is God choosing the elect.

Everyone from the day they are born are doomed to hell. This was the judgment of God. Rebellion against the things of God is in our nature. And, yes, God did tell them (us) that we are bound for hell unless He steps in and changes this nature.

A god that chooses people to be damned from before time is quite contrary to a Christian concept of a loving God.

The fact is that God did sentence the entire Adam race to hell. Love has nothing to do with it-at least OUR concept of love-which is nothing more than "fairness", not love. What we don't understand is the concept of grace and justice. Knowing that we do not do the things that we should be doing, yet God is gracious to forgive and help us to grow. This is the Father's love.

[HarleyD]

More surprisingly is that you reject the Church-authorized Latin Bible.

[MarkBsnr]

I don’t. The Latin Bible authorized by the Church is fully acceptable to me.

I also accept that the Church has the only authorization to interpret the Bible. Interpretations of men are Scripturally forbidden.

[Quix]

Thanks for the ping.

[Iscool]

And my point is, again, how does one know if one is not following the brighest angel if one rejects the Church of Jesus on earth?

We didn't reject the church of Jesus Christ on earth...We couldn't reject the church...We didn't join the church...Jesus put us into it when we submitted our trust in Him, made Him our Savior...He then put us into His church...

How'd you get into the Catholic Church???

[kosta50]

Nope....sounds like your religious history/faith has far to go to reach the truth Kosta

Nope...the sun doesn't shine...

[kosta50]

and there will always be failures and falling short of what we might otherwise be...we all have a “trail” of damage behind us

And your point is?

[kosta50]

The only thing that's "imbecilic" is someone trying to make a point with insults—seemingly your preferred method. Which tells me that you have nothing of substance to say, and explains your pathetic, superstitious, drivel.

[spirited irish]

snip: If one truly has the choices of heaven and hell standing before them, what choice would they make? Once we see the light we will never want the darkness.

Spirited: Those who freely choose the Light of Jesus Christ cannot empathize with those who freely reject Heaven, thereby willfully condemning themselves to Hell. There can be no meeting of minds (empathy) between the former and the latter.

Dostoevsky noted that there are those whose will (Pride of Mind, Flesh, Life) is so terrible as to be satanic. How did Dostoevsky know this to be true? Because he was a self-confessed terrible-willed man, but he sought spiritual remedy through Jesus Christ.

CS Lewis understood this to be the case as well, which is why he said that the gate to Hell will be slammed and locked from the inside.

No, I cannot empathize with such a mind, and I thank God that I cannot.

[Cronos]

Here's an extract from the Preservation... chapter 17 (heavy read!)

Thus the salvation of this religion, by which only true one true salvation is truly promised, never failed him who was worthy of it; and whoever it failed was not worthy of it. And from the very beginning of the propagation of man, even to the end, the gospel is preached, to some for a reward, to some for judgment; and thus also those to whom the faith was not announced at all were foreknown as those who would not believe; and those to whom it was announced, although they were not such as would believe, are set forth as an example for the former; while those to whom it is announced who should believe, are prepared for the kingdom of heaven, and the company of the holy angels.

and whoever it failed was not worthy of it. --> no sense of pre-ordination of the damned.

Catholic dogma states that

• the eternal choice of the elect by God is very real, very gratuitous, and constitutes the grace of graces;
• However, this does not contradict the Divine will to save all men, which is not realized except by the liberty of free will that leaves to the elect full power to fall and to the non-elect full power to rise under God's grace

This is illustrated in Preservation... chapter 19

although foreknowledge may exist without predestination; because God foreknew by predestination those things which He was about to do, whence it was said, He made those things that shall be. Isaiah 45:11 Moreover, He is able to foreknow even those things which He does not Himself do—as all sins whatever

He goes on to say

Because, although there are some which are in such wise sins as that they are also the penalties of sins, whence it is said, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient, Romans 1:28 it is not in such a case the sin that is God's, but the judgment.

As an aside, he says in chapter 25

If the Pelagians should dare to say this, by their denial of original sin they would thus be relieved of the necessity of seeking, on behalf of infants outside of the kingdom of God, for some place of I know not what happiness of their own; especially since they are convinced that they cannot have eternal life because they have not eaten the flesh nor drank the blood of Christ; and because in them who have no sin at all, baptism, which is given for the remission of sins, is falsified.

[Cronos]

HD -- Mark is pointing out the meaning of the word infallible viz. Fallible means able to make a mistake or able to teach error. Infallible means the opposite: the inability to make a mistake or to teach error.

This denotes a living "thing", one that can make a decision. A placard, say, is neither fallible nor infallible.

The proper term to use about the Bible is that is has no errors, that it is inerrant

[Cronos]

Good points. Will get back to you after I think a bit and rest my eyes (Augustine has looooong sentences)

[kosta50]

Actually, Kosta -- lambs were not sacred in egypt but the ram was -- a significant difference

Some people are disputing it, fwiw. But one thing is clear: the Passover lamb was not killed to atone for anyone's sins. The Jews use a goat for that purpose and that happens on Yom Kippur, which is nowhere near the Passover.

Again, animal sin offerings were for involuntary sins only, which is a big fly in the Christian ointment.

As for the Tanakh, the book of Isaiah which is found in the oldest known Tanakh (9th century AD, Moscow), and all subsequent copies of it, agree fully with the Qumran version of Isaiah.

[MarkBsnr]

Amen. If one truly has the choices of heaven and hell standing before them, what choice would they make? Once we see the light we will never want the darkness.

If that is true, then why did satan and 1/3 of all the angels choose to reign in hell rather than serve in Heaven?