The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

Excellent insight. Thank you!

[Alamo-Girl]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

We Christians do follow the Good Shepherd and being sheep, we are small minded and easily distracted - hence, the rest of my post.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear daniel1212!

[Cvengr]

Even amongst Calvinists, double-predestination is not always an accepted doctrine. IMHO, it was presumed and read into Scripture by Beza in the years immediately after the death of Calvin. IMHO, it isn’t Scriptural.

[grey_whiskers]

My question is still the same: can my religious opinion(s) give someone faith or cause him to loose it?

If you put your foot out in front of someone running by, did you cause them to fall?

Many people slip or trip without a foot in the way; many recover from someone putting a foot in front of them; some faceplant immediately.

But that still doesn't let *you* off the hook.

Cheers!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You may have MarkBsnr mixed up with Cronos. MarkBsnr has not had any unattributed posts pulled.

I didn't attribute the offending post to Mark.

Cronos made the exorcism comment to me (which was later pulled) and Mark responded to my disgust with that post that I was some kind of hall monitor who has a problem with Latin.

[Cronos]

Exorcism? hmm... well, it does make sense in case of cases of possesion.

[Cronos]

Ok, I had never heard of http://www.waltermartin.com/ until now. Thank you for the reference. For me, that remains the unsurmountable point namely the God we believe in does not pre-damn people to hell.

[Cronos]

latin -- you mean like The Institutes in Latin?

[kosta50]

So someones wrong...they cannot all be right.....

They can all be right and all be wrong. If God is so incomprehensible, then no man will have it exactly right, but will have bits and pieces right. On the other hand, there may be no God, in which case they are all wrong.

Muhammad is dead....Joseph Smith is dead....etc. etc. We have a risen savior. ..... All which He said He would do He did....all which He says He is HE is.....and all which He says He will do you can, with certainty, know that He will do in the future

Their God is not dead. Unlike Jesus, their Mohammad, Moses, Joseph Smith, Buddha, etc were not gods, so they are dead.

Some religions are just naturally nicer, just like some people. They are more inclusive and less radical. Islam is a rabid and extreme, opressive religion, unlike just about any other one these days, but Judaim or Cristianity were not much better in the past.

We owe much of our tolerance and "niceness" to the Age of Reason and the humanist freethinkers of the later 17th, and the 18th centuries.

When you say to "Christ is within us" that sounds wonderful but it is not obvious or compelling. Other people are willing to die for their faith. Many a Christian used the martyrdom of early Christians as proof that their faith is true. So who are you to tell others theirs is not true if they are dying for it?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Your post was pulled by the Moderator.

Learn from it.

[count-your-change]

By what teaching, by what example or principle of Jesus or his apostles are Christians authorized to use threats of death or harm against those who did not agree with them?

How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

[kosta50]

If it is God's will for someone to lose or gain faith, my opinions cannot thwart his will; otherwise God's will is for naught, and men save themselves because they “choose” to believe. Take your pick.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Perhaps Cronos is unaware that employing Latin in the 16th century differs greatly from using Latin in 2011.

[Quix]

He’s great enough at apologetics . . . that the obstreperous one might even return to the faith from listening to his audio files.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

By what teaching, by what example or principle of Jesus or his apostles are Christians authorized to use threats of death or harm against those who did not agree with them?

How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

Amen!

"The Holy Inquisition in its full vigor is something modernity sorely lacks" -- 328 posted on 08/01/2008 4:59:56 PM PDT by annalex

[Cronos]

However, in all fairness, neither Mo nor Joe (hmm... they could be a comedy team, Moe-Joe!)claimed to be God.

However, to take Kostka's line -- if someone does not acknowledge the Bible as true, then one cannot quote scripture to prove Christ is God, because that person (Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist say) would say "I don't acknowledge your scripture"

BUT -- both Islam and Mormonism claim that the Bible is one of their Holy Texts and is true (but, according to them distorted). This is an error on their part rather than claiming to be a completely fresh religion.

If one takes it coldly, logically, and first acknowledges the OT as true, then one reads and finds proof in the OT for a Christ, a Messiah. One can find statements in the OT that prove to us Christians that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah (of course, Jews state that He didn't fulfill Eze 37:26-28, Is 43:5-6 -- they also claim He didn't fulfil Is2:4 (world peace) but I would argue that since Christianity the world was definitely more peaceful than in pagan times, all until WWI or that He didn'tfulfill Zec 14:9 -- but you and I would argue contrary on that point as He did spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel)

Anyway, I digress -- The Moslems and Mormons both say "Oh, the Bible is true but mistranslated/misunderstood/distorted. "

And this brings it out of the belief realm to historical, factual. And factually, checking even non-Christians like the Essenes we see tha the basic gospels and epistles are the same as they were first written. Ok, the canon of what is accepted or not did fluctuate, but not in the distorted way they claim.

Furthermore, in the Koran, they make a number of gaffes:

• Claiming that Ishmael was due to be sacrificed by Abraham, not Isaac (a clear pandering to the Nejd Arabs who claimed descent from Ishmael) -- this was never heard of for 2600 years, not even breathed about
• Claiming that Jesus was born to Mary in the desert, which shows that Mo didn't read the NT but heard fragments of it -- he's projecting the Revelations imagery

And it's the same way in quite Mormonism claims that polytheism was practised by Early Christians and/or by Jews -- quite historically and factually wrong.

Saying "it's down to an encounter with Christ" is good, but that's the same what every religion would point out or say in different ways. Christianity holds up to facts far better than the branches of Islam/Bahai'ism or Mormonism. Against pure Buddhism (not Mahayana but Hinayana) and Arya Samaj it still holds logically true. I would argue that Zoroastrianism is one that holds up in comparison to Christianity, but the older variants not the ones since 50 BC.

[Cronos]

Elaborating further, a religion that comes 640 years later cannot put words in the mouth of someone 640 years later when there has been no indication/information in the intervening 640 years that the person ever SAID it.

For instance, the Koran says that Jesus said the following

"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt."—Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35

This seems to be something taken out of the Gospel of Thomas, but it's different words, sentences etc. -- there was no statement like this ever referred to in the 640 years before Mo!!

Then there is the other major distortion in the Crucifixation

Qur'an 4:155-159 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women) (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant: that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)"; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy and little is it they believe. That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.

It's illogical!!!

[count-your-change]

According to John 16:1-4 such actions were used against Christ’s followers not by them.