The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Quix]

Thanks for your understanding.

Photobucket is a great place but it does have fairly strict rules.

And, it is more fitting that you have your own account to do with according to your sensibilities.

[Quix]

Yes, in large measure, the unexamined life is not worth much.

However . . . an endless loop of futile and logically absurd mental masturbation is not exactly progress.

[Cronos]

With regards to Augustinian predestinationalism.

Calvinists get this wrong. The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course may be new to Calvinists and may sound strange to them, but it did not sound strange to Augustine, he did not draw Calvin's inference that all who are ever saved are predestined to remain in grace.

While Calvin's view of predestination might be a variation of Augustine's view, the two are not the same.

Augustine did not believe in Calvin's understanding of the "perseverance of the saints," and neither did the broadly Augustinian tradition. That understanding was new with Calvin.

In 1748 the Church declared Thomism, Molinism, and a third view known as Augustinianism to be acceptable Catholic teachings

Augustine

"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).

Remember also that Augustine rejected any notion of an invisible Church and believed in sacraments (Augustine too believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist)

Calvinists believe that Calvin corrected Luther and Augustine. The Restoration had guys like Ellen G White, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Adventists etc. who corrected the Reformers. Each generation you have another correction to "Christianity". What makes them more correct? The fact that they lived after the preceding bunch?

The evidence is that these increasing and increasingly myriad number of religions evolve as their beliefs evolve away from the Faith and Christian beliefs like The Trinity.

[Cronos]

well, I didn’t know — however, it was an apt image for the good doctor’s post. Good choice of imagery on your account.

[Cronos]

Augustine, just two years before death wrote in his book The Gift of Perseverance that not all who were predestined to come to God’s grace were predestined to remain with him until glory.

This was the understanding of Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, all — they all believed that one could lose salvation, since it was evident for them that from the Bible, baptism saves, that the baptised may deny Jesus and that those who deny Jesus Christ will not be saved unless they repent.

Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals — all to some extent or the other acknowledge of mortal sins that can cause us to lose salvation (Quix -- pentecostals of course believe that sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, right?) at least in some form.

Only Calvinist reject mortal sins, believing in their caste system instead.

Calvin's influence can be seen on people who were driven to despair as the Calvinist explanation if anyone committed a grave sin is that they had never been Christians in the first place at all!! What despair.

[Cronos]

Ez 18:21-32

21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live...

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.

27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.

[Cronos]

1 John 3:4

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Calvinists use this to plumb the depths of despair as since they do not believe in repentence, then anyone who does not do what is right the Calvinist believe they were never really Christian

[Cronos]

1 John 3:4

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Calvinists use this to plumb the depths of despair as since they do not believe in repentence, then anyone who does not do what is right the Calvinist believe they were never really Christian since they would fail the P 'Perseverance'.

They will never understand 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

and Galatians 5:19-21

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Calvinist will say anyone who did this was never really Christian at all -- in the Calvinist scheme, there is no repentence, no forgiveness, no loving, forgiving God

and yet they do not read Romans 11:20-24

20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree

For further discussion see Robert Shank, Life in the Son (Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1989) and Dale Moody, The Word of Truth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1981), 348ff. Both authors are Baptists who believe in conditional security, not eternal security.

[Cronos]

In the beliefs of Catholics even Pentecostals, one rather believes that those who persevere in trust in God, in faith in God to the end of their lives will be the elect in God's eyes.

Neither Pentecostal nor Catholic will believe in limited atonement that Christ's sacrifice was for some men but not for all. Calvinists claim Christ died only for the elect.

[Quix]

LOL.

Thanks. I think.

Yeah, the pics sometimes really do substitute well for a lot of words and for times when words just don’t suffice.

[Quix]

Certainly we believe the Scripture about blaspheming Holy Spirit.

[Cronos]

In the beliefs of Catholics even Pentecostals, one rather believes that those who persevere in trust in God, in faith in God to the end of their lives will be the elect in God's eyes.

Neither Pentecostal nor Catholic will believe in limited atonement that Christ's sacrifice was for some men but not for all. Calvinists claim Christ died only for the elect.

This is incorrect -> Aquinas stated, "Christ's passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race ; according to 1 John 2:2, 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.'" [ST III:48:2].

And this contradicts John 4:42

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

[Cronos]

Yes, and blaspheming the Holy Spirit is what we Catholics would call a Mortal Sin — a sin that can lose us our salvation freely granted by Christ. Hence Christ was careful to warn us about this

[caww]

It is a pretentious and potentially dangerous mindset, in my opinion, to assume to be God's tool, doing supposedly God's will.

Actually no it's not....but there are many counterfeits and false prophets, Christ said that would be so. Some are clearly so, others hide behind a cloak of Christianity. However we are responsible for discerning the difference and God is faithful to assist us in that determination. Generally speaking if one is familiar with scripture it's not difficult to determine....though sometimes it takes time to. Anything which opposes scripture should be a red flag.

[Gamecock]

Oh, you want to talk about wrongs done by the church!

Persecution of the Waldenses in France

Popery having brought various innovations into the Church, and overspread the Christian world with darkness and superstition, some few, who plainly perceived the pernicious tendency of such errors, determined to show the light of the Gospel in its real purity, and to disperse those clouds which artful priests had raised about it, in order to blind the people, and obscure its real brightness. The principal among these was Berengarius, who, about the year 1000, boldly preached Gospel truths, according to their primitive purity. Many, from conviction, assented to his doctrine, and were, on that account, called Berengarians. To Berengarius succeeded Peer Bruis, who preached at Toulouse, under the protection of an earl, named Hildephonsus; and the whole tenets of the reformers, with the reasons of their separation from the Church of Rome, were published in a book written by Bruis, under the title of "Antichrist."

By the year of Christ 1140, the number of the reformed was very great, and the probability of its increasing alarmed the pope, who wrote to several princes to banish them from their dominions, and employed many learned men to write against their doctrines.

In A.D. 1147, because of Henry of Toulouse, deemed their most eminent preacher, they were called Henericians; and as they would not admit of any proofs relative to religion, but what could be deduced from the Scriptures themselves, the popish party gave them the name of apostolics. At length, Peter Waldo, or Valdo, a native of Lyons, eminent for his piety and learning, became a strenuous opposer of popery; and from him the reformed, at that time, received the appellation of Waldenses or Waldoys.

Pope Alexander III being informed by the bishop of Lyons of these transactions, excommunicated Waldo and his adherents, and commanded the bishop to exterminate them, if possible, from the face of the earth; hence began the papal persecutions against the Waldenses.

The proceedings of Waldo and the reformed, occasioned the first rise of the inquisitors; for Pope Innocent III authorized certain monks as inquisitors, to inquire for, and deliver over, the reformed to the secular power. The process was short, as an accusation was deemed adequate to guilt, and a candid trial was never granted to the accused.

The pope, finding that these cruel means had not the intended effect, sent several learned monks to preach among the Waldenses, and to endeavor to argue them out of their opinions. Among these monks was one Dominic, who appeared extremely zealous in the cause of popery. This Dominic instituted an order, which, from him, was called the order of Dominican friars; and the members of this order have ever since been the principal inquisitors in the various inquisitions in the world. The power of the inquisitors was unlimited; they proceeded against whom they pleased, without any consideration of age, sex, or rank. Let the accusers be ever so infamous, the accusation was deemed valid; and even anonymous informations, sent by letter, were thought sufficient evidence. To be rich was a crime equal to heresy; therefore many who had money were accused of heresy, or of being favorers of heretics, that they might be obliged to pay for their opinions. The dearest friends or nearest kindred could not, without danger, serve any one who was imprisoned on account of religion. To convey to those who were confined, a little straw, or give them a cup of water, was called favoring of the heretics, and they were prosecuted accordingly. No lawyer dared to plead for his own brother, and their malice even extended beyond the grave; hence the bones of many were dug up and burnt, as examples to the living. If a man on his deathbed was accused of being a follower of Waldo, his estates were confiscated, and the heir to them defrauded of his inheritance; and some were sent to the Holy Land, while the Dominicans took possession of their houses and properties, and, when the owners returned, would often pretend not to know them. These persecutions were continued for several centuries under different popes and other great dignitaries of the Catholic Church.

From Foxe's Book of Martyrs

Seems like whatever wrongs Calvin did, he learned it sitting on the lap of Rome.

[caww]

I have no problem understanding Dr. E’s view....though I believe man has a choice, God does move man to that point of decision when He is seeking the truth. The issue really is if one is seeking God and His truth or are they simply desirous of a stage to voice their opinions and challenge those who do believe...sort of as a game of sport.

If one is being drawn to God he can resist...we see this. But eventually there does come a point of decision...and a step of faith. When one continues to reframe the same questions, statements etc. they are simply extending conversation to entertain themself.

So if one was to answer yet another question...is that person prepared to accept Christ if that question is answered? The answer to this would be telling.

[caww]

BTW...fighter jets flying low over the square in Egypt now. Crowd roars back in defiance....extreme volume in their voices.

[HarleyD]

...post things like post things like "we see the inherent Satanism of Free-Will Arminianism" (accusing Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. who disagree with Calvin of preaching a gospel of Satan...

Ahhhhhhhhh....for the good ol' days. ;O)

[HarleyD]

...Augustine...did not draw Calvin's inference that all who are ever saved are predestined to remain in grace.

Therefore, the former will to believe; the latter do not will." Who does not know this? Who can deny this? But since in some the will is prepared by the Lord, in others it is not prepared, we must assuredly be able to distinguish what comes from God's mercy, and what from His judgment. "What Israel sought for," says the apostle, "he hath not obtained, but the election hath obtained it; and the rest were blinded, as it is written, God gave to them the spirit of compunction,—eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, even to this day. ... Here is mercy and judgment,—mercy towards the election which has obtained the righteousness of God, but judgment to the rest which have been blinded. And yet the former, because they willed, believed; the latter, because they did not will believed not. Therefore mercy and judgment were manifested in the very wills themselves.

A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints by Augustine

According to Augustine's logic, men believe because God prepares the will. Once God prepares the will in a believer, that person has obtained righteousness.